Global temps continue to fall

[airdvr 210]

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1 peer reviewed study out of thousands doesn't change much.

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I did not know that was how science worked.

It only works that way when the results aren't something anyone in the government wants to fund...

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[kallend 2,146]

brenthutch

*********I'm still waiting for kallend to let us know how "think progress " has more credibility then the "international journal of modern physics"

Kallend have you had a chance to review the peer reviewed study published in the International Journal of Modern Physics? Or is it invalidated because it was I who brought it to your attention?

Maybe it's because I've been on vacation and had better things to do with my time.

1 peer reviewed study out of thousands doesn't change much.

I did not know that was how science worked.

If 10,000 peer reviewed studies showed the risk of cancer increased when you smoke, and one found that it didn't, would you believe the one because it suited you?

THAT is what brenthutch does.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[brenthutch 444]

Did you even read the study? It makes a compelling case and more important, it comports with observation, something that co2 based AGW theory no longer does.

[billvon 3,107]

>If 10,000 peer reviewed studies showed the risk of cancer increased when you smoke,
>and one found that it didn't, would you believe the one because it suited you?

It would mean the SCIENCE ISN'T SETTLED! You can't prove smoking causes cancer, so people should smoke as much as they want and not listen to idiot greenie anti-smoking types with their scare tactics and liberal lies. But I guess the GOVERNMENT SHEEP wouldn't want you to think for yourself!

(insert tobacco-funded study here)

[rehmwa 2]

billvon

>If 10,000 peer reviewed studies showed the risk of cancer increased when you smoke,
>and one found that it didn't, would you believe the one because it suited you?

It would mean the SCIENCE ISN'T SETTLED! You can't prove smoking causes cancer, so people should smoke as much as they want and not listen to idiot greenie anti-smoking types with their scare tactics and liberal lies. But I guess the GOVERNMENT SHEEP wouldn't want you to think for yourself!

(insert tobacco-funded study here)

I'd think the analogy would match a lot better if the 10,000 studies were in support of the huge money making industry, rather than against it. Or if the 10,000 studies were being leveraged into a bunch of subsidies for new industries or a series of government tax initiatives. But that's just one take on it, I guess.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,107]

>I'd think the analogy would match a lot better if the 10,000 studies were in support
>of the huge money making industry, rather than against it.

Early on tobacco companies touted the use of smoking as a health aid. It was relaxing and kept down blood pressure. When the Surgeon General started studying the health effects in the 1960's, the first reaction of the tobacco companies was to employ people like Fred Seitz to sow doubt and confusion, so the tobacco companies could claim that people should not heed the Surgeon General's report until "all the facts were in." In this way they kept their products more profitable, at the cost of a few million to people like Seitz.

Oil companies did the same thing for a long time; touted all the benefits of coal and oil while downplaying the role that CO2 played in climate change. They even funded an effort to label CO2 as "an amazingly effective aerial fertilizer" that would let us grow more food and feed the world. When the IPCC reports started coming out, they funded people like Fred Seitz to sow doubt and confusion, so the oil companies could claim that "the science isn't settled" and any action to reduce emissions of CO2 were premature. In this way they kept the products more profitable, at the cost of a few million to institutions like the Marshall Institute.

====================
Routledge Handbook of Climate Change and Society

July 2nd 2010

. . . .Just as political conservatism seems to be the hegemonic glue that binds together the primary actors involved in climate change denial, the broad strategy of 'manufacturing uncertainty' is the unifying approach employed by the denial machine. The use of 'experts' to raise questions about scientific evidence, and thus help create uncertainty over the need for governmental regulations, was first perfected by the tobacco industry. It has since been employed by a wide range of industries to protect their products from regulations and lawsuits. As David Michaels (2008) puts it when introducing his detailed analysis of efforts to manufacture uncertainty:

"Big Tobacco.. .showed the way. The practices it perfected are alive and well and ubiquitous today. We see this growing trend that demands proof over precaution in the realm of public health. In field after field, conclusions that might support regulation are always disputed. Animal data are deemed not relevant. human data not representative, and exposure data not reliable. Whatever the story — global warming. sugar and obesity, second-hand smoke — scientists in what I call the 'product defence industry' prepare for the release of unfavourable studies even before the studies are published. Public relations experts feed these for-hire scientists contrarian sound bites that play well with reporters who are mired in the trap of believing there must be two sides to every story."

If this sounds like a blueprint for climate change denial. it is because the denial machine not only learned from those who previously used the practice of manufacturing uncertainty successfully, but some of its key actors learned the value of the strategy directly from their personal involvement in the `tobacco wars'.
====================

[rehmwa 2]

I have no issue with people that say "the environment may or may not be in trouble, let's take the safe road and be smarter about it"

My cynicism is the entire AGW complex that states, in essense, "the planet will DIE, gimme your money to spend on random shit for my friends"

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,107]

>My cynicism is the entire AGW complex that states, in essense, "the planet will DIE,
>gimme your money to spend on random shit for my friends"

I don't heed them much either. I think the difference there is that I see "you're all going to DIE unless we spend spend spend on my friends!" as not much different as "you're all going to FREEZE IN THE DARK unless you BURN BURN BURN my fossil fuels!" Both are alarmist nonsense.

[rehmwa 2]

billvon

>My cynicism is the entire AGW complex that states, in essense, "the planet will DIE,
>gimme your money to spend on random shit for my friends"

I don't heed them much either. I think the difference there is that I see "you're all going to DIE unless we spend spend spend on my friends!" as not much different as "you're all going to FREEZE IN THE DARK unless you BURN BURN BURN my fossil fuels!" Both are alarmist nonsense.

I'm good with that.

We only diverge on the whole, subsidize (admit it, it's a version of "gimme to spend on my friends" philosophy) vs letting the smarter energy companies develop it on their own to cash in on the market thingy....

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

I'm good with that.

I'm not.

Some of us actually live in northern climates where the temperatures drop well below freezing for half of the year. In fact it is not uncommon to have to live in -30 temperatures for days if not weeks on end and where we only get about 7 hours of sunlight during the winter solstice. There is no way in a frozen over hell that solar panels covered with snow will keep us warm. Some of us actually have to burn fossil fuels to keep ourselves from freezing.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 3,107]

>Some of us actually have to burn fossil fuels to keep ourselves from freezing.

Right - and that's a place where it's a good use of fossil fuels (or nuclear power, or hydro etc etc.) Indeed, it would be best to save them so that in places where we really do need them we will always have a good supply of them.

How do we save them? One way is to put those solar panels in Phoenix, so that Arizonans don't use the fossil fuels that Canadians need.

[jcd11235 0]

rehmwa

We only diverge on the whole, subsidize (admit it, it's a version of "gimme to spend on my friends" philosophy) vs letting the smarter energy companies develop it on their own to cash in on the market thingy....

Let's not forget that fossil fuel use is also subsidized in the US, via tax breaks and hidden costs that must be picked up by the public. Until those subsidizations are eliminated, and fossil fuel consumers are required to pay the entire cost of their fuel and its effects, then I think subsidies for cleaner, renewable energy technologies are justified.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rehmwa 2]

jcd11235

***We only diverge on the whole, subsidize (admit it, it's a version of "gimme to spend on my friends" philosophy) vs letting the smarter energy companies develop it on their own to cash in on the market thingy....

Let's not forget that fossil fuel use is also subsidized in the US, via tax breaks and hidden costs that must be picked up by the public. Until those subsidizations are eliminated, and fossil fuel consumers are required to pay the entire cost of their fuel and its effects, then I think subsidies for cleaner, renewable energy technologies are justified.

agree with no more subsidies for fossil fuel, but the penalties and extra taxes also should be deleted.

You lost me with "hidden costs", "and its effects": that's double speak for "gimme your money so I can spend it on my friends" - it's just rationalization for the government to go take another $$$ cut at a non-PC industry.

you speak about no subsidies for fossil fuels, but then you want to continue the madness for the next generation of energy - stop perpetuating the madness and pick a position - continuing to do stupid things economically is not a win


On whole - you pretty much just went with the 'green' mantra hook line and sinker.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jcd11235 0]

rehmwa

you speak about no subsidies for fossil fuels, but then you want to continue the madness for the next generation of energy

You should probably reread my post, more carefully this time.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rehmwa 2]

jcd11235

***you speak about no subsidies for fossil fuels, but then you want to continue the madness for the next generation of energy

You should probably reread my post, more carefully this time.

I stand corrected, you had an "until", and a "then" in there.
I'm with you, then.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jcd11235 0]

rehmwa

******you speak about no subsidies for fossil fuels, but then you want to continue the madness for the next generation of energy

You should probably reread my post, more carefully this time.

I stand corrected, you had an "until", and a "then" in there.
I'm with you, then.

Most of us read posts a little too quickly from time to time.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[turtlespeed 226]

billvon

>Some of us actually have to burn fossil fuels to keep ourselves from freezing.

Right - and that's a place where it's a good use of fossil fuels (or nuclear power, or hydro etc etc.) Indeed, it would be best to save them so that in places where we really do need them we will always have a good supply of them.

How do we save them? One way is to put those solar panels in Phoenix, so that Arizonans don't use the fossil fuels that Canadians need.

Doode! WTF? They are JUST Canadians.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[kallend 2,146]

billvon

>Some of us actually have to burn fossil fuels to keep ourselves from freezing.

Right - and that's a place where it's a good use of fossil fuels (or nuclear power, or hydro etc etc.) Indeed, it would be best to save them so that in places where we really do need them we will always have a good supply of them.

How do we save them? One way is to put those solar panels in Phoenix, so that Arizonans don't use the fossil fuels that Canadians need.

WOW, what an AMAZING concept.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,146]

rehmwa

******We only diverge on the whole, subsidize (admit it, it's a version of "gimme to spend on my friends" philosophy) vs letting the smarter energy companies develop it on their own to cash in on the market thingy....

Let's not forget that fossil fuel use is also subsidized in the US, via tax breaks and hidden costs that must be picked up by the public. Until those subsidizations are eliminated, and fossil fuel consumers are required to pay the entire cost of their fuel and its effects, then I think subsidies for cleaner, renewable energy technologies are justified.

agree with no more subsidies for fossil fuel, but the penalties and extra taxes also should be deleted.

You lost me with "hidden costs", "and its effects": that's double speak for "gimme your money so I can spend it on my friends" - it's just rationalization for the government to go take another $$$ cut at a non-PC industry.

you speak about no subsidies for fossil fuels, but then you want to continue the madness for the next generation of energy - stop perpetuating the madness and pick a position - continuing to do stupid things economically is not a win


On whole - you pretty much just went with the 'green' mantra hook line and sinker.

Hidden costs - things like cleaning up polluted sites after the company that did the polluting has disappeared.

The Superfund costs taxpayers a lot of money.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Remster 30]

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How do we save them? One way is to put those solar panels in Phoenix, so that Arizonans don't use the fossil fuels that Canadians need.

What about us Canadians in Arizona?

Why do you hate us?

Remster

[billvon 3,107]

>What about us Canadians in Arizona?

Eh, put a funny hat on, you'll be fine.

[rushmc 23]

billvon

>Some of us actually have to burn fossil fuels to keep ourselves from freezing.

Right - and that's a place where it's a good use of fossil fuels (or nuclear power, or hydro etc etc.) Indeed, it would be best to save them so that in places where we really do need them we will always have a good supply of them.

How do we save them? One way is to put those solar panels in Phoenix, so that Arizonans don't use the fossil fuels that Canadians need.

It will be fun to talk to MN residents once they start paying for the mandated solar generation laws just pasted that only pertain to investor owned utilites

gonna be fun indeed

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

billvon

>What about us Canadians in Arizona?

Eh, put a funny hat on, you'll be fine.

???

What will they do with the ones they already have on?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Remster 30]

billvon

>What about us Canadians in Arizona?

Eh, put a funny hat on, you'll be fine.

Hoser.

Remster

[ianmdrennan 2]

Is a gimp mask considered a hat these days?

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