Is Obama Care Bull Shit? Are Death Panels Next?

[kelpdiver 2]

wmw999

Quote

Many would dispute that

What percentage of those are actually in the UK? And is the definition of "works well" the same as "everyone loves it?" If so, why do you think that the US system works?

People who support the US system in general - those employed with employer provided/subsidized health care who have not hit an outlier event where the coverage was denied. It's cheap (I'm paying less than $1000/year), and for acute events is the best care you can buy at any price.

People who tend to disfavor it - those who ever had a one strike you're uninsurable condition like cancer, people who don't have access to group plans, people who pay full freight, people who can't afford (genuinely, not 100+ jump per year skydivers in their 20s), and people who see the future breakdown of this system. The first group is the greater majority, hence the reluctance to reform.

As for the UK or other systems with "free" care, those who like it are those who have never run into problems with managed care, those who have only had the common events and appreciate the low or zero out of pocket expense. Those who oppose it - those who have been forced to wait for procedures, those who have been directed to inferior, cheaper options. Those who had to fly to the US or medical tourism sites and pay out of pocket for something they could not get at home.

I look at Kaiser in the US as an example of the downsides one can face. My mom spent 8 months in a cast instead of walking 8 weeks after surgery to fix a broken tib/fib. Another still can't walk distances after they downplayed the need for PT after his ankle surgery.

[Stumpy 284]

kelpdiver

As for the UK or other systems with "free" care, those who like it are those who have never run into problems with managed care, those who have only had the common events and appreciate the low or zero out of pocket expense. Those who oppose it - those who have been forced to wait for procedures, those who have been directed to inferior, cheaper options. Those who had to fly to the US or medical tourism sites and pay out of pocket for something they could not get at home.

Sorry, but this is complete crap for one very simple reason. In the UK, people also have the ability to pay for health care if they want to, and get the very top end stuff with no waiting lists etc.

The NHS works very well the vast majority of the time. Sure, there are always going to be cases where things don't go right and people get upset for whatever reason, in ANY system. However, the most vocal people about how bad the UK health system is tend to be Americans with a political agenda.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[skypuppy 1]

Stumpy

***
As for the UK or other systems with "free" care, those who like it are those who have never run into problems with managed care, those who have only had the common events and appreciate the low or zero out of pocket expense. Those who oppose it - those who have been forced to wait for procedures, those who have been directed to inferior, cheaper options. Those who had to fly to the US or medical tourism sites and pay out of pocket for something they could not get at home.

Sorry, but this is complete crap for one very simple reason. In the UK, people also have the ability to pay for health care if they want to, and get the very top end stuff with no waiting lists etc.

The NHS works very well the vast majority of the time. Sure, there are always going to be cases where things don't go right and people get upset for whatever reason, in ANY system. However, the most vocal people about how bad the UK health system is tend to be Americans with a political agenda.

That is certainly true in Britain. It is NOT true in Canada - and I continue to maintain that lack of choice in canada 0 where private for-profit medicine is prohibited (unless you're a politician) - kills hundreds of people a year. And makes invalids of others who are kept on waiting lists, denied certain drugs, or refused certain treatments.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[mistercwood 287]

You don't have the option of choosing private over public in Canada? I was not aware of that, nor am I happy to hear it. That's messed up.

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[quade 4]

mistercwood

You don't have the option of choosing private over public in Canada? I was not aware of that, nor am I happy to hear it. That's messed up.

Actually, they have the option of choosing both. Socialized will pick up necessities and if you want to go above and beyond that, like optional cosmetic surgery, it exists too. Socialized will pick up a hospital bed in a shared room, but if you want a private room hospitals are more than willing to take your money to upgrade.

To say private doesn't exist and social is the only option is dishonest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada
http://www.canadian-healthcare.org/page4.html

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Skyrad 0]

Stumpy

***
As for the UK or other systems with "free" care, those who like it are those who have never run into problems with managed care, those who have only had the common events and appreciate the low or zero out of pocket expense. Those who oppose it - those who have been forced to wait for procedures, those who have been directed to inferior, cheaper options. Those who had to fly to the US or medical tourism sites and pay out of pocket for something they could not get at home.

Sorry, but this is complete crap for one very simple reason. In the UK, people also have the ability to pay for health care if they want to, and get the very top end stuff with no waiting lists etc.

The NHS works very well the vast majority of the time. Sure, there are always going to be cases where things don't go right and people get upset for whatever reason, in ANY system. However, the most vocal people about how bad the UK health system is tend to be Americans with a political agenda.

Exactly

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[jclalor 12]

So a man goes into the hospital for a vasectomy, while in the pre op room, a nurse come's in and has him undress. After he is undressed, she starts to go down on him, shocked he stops her and ask her "what do you think you're doing?", "Sir, it's just standard pre op procedure, I'm clearing the sperm ducts in preparation for your surgery". After she is done and she is wheeling him to surgery, he see's another nurse going down on another patient, he ask, ' what is she doing? "Sir, he is having the exact same surgery as you, she is clearing his sperm ducts". Passing yet another room, she see's a nurse giving a pt a hand job, "What type of surgery is he having?" Sir, he is having exactly the same surgery as you, only he has Kaiser.

[kallend 2,148]

steve1

For the first time in my life I've got some health problems. I thought I was well insured.....I found out differently. After a six month battle with my insurance company, they have concluded that they don't have to pay for a better treatment. Supposedly the cheap ones are just as good. I've talked to many, who say this is just a sign of things to come.

Will Obama Care be the ruin of our economy? Where else has socialized medicine worked?

I'm embarrassed to say that I voted for Obama twice. I've never thought of myself as a socialist. Why in the world did I vote for this sweet talking crook?

After an hour visit with my Dr. this morning, my eyes are now open.

I'd like to hear your opinions on this. It just seems to me that something here really stinks. I learn a lot from these forums.....tell me what you think! Yes, I deserve a good thrashing for voting for this idiot.

You are truly clueless. You are not being denied by Obamacare. You are being denied by your insurance company.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,148]

rushmc

***From reading your story, I don't think you know what "Obamacare" is. It is specifically designed to prevent such nonsense as you've related. It doesn't take effect until next year. When it does, it will allow you to buy healthcare at a reasonable price and do away with lifetime limits which are the sort of thing preventing your treatment right now.

All the above said, it's to be seen how it will actually work out.

And YOU do know what it is???

Well, the only thing we do know about Obamacare is that is not about health care, cause is it about control

My GF serves on a death panel.

She is a medical director for a private for-profit medical insurance company. She and her colleagues make the "claim denied" decisions.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skypuppy 1]

quade

***You don't have the option of choosing private over public in Canada? I was not aware of that, nor am I happy to hear it. That's messed up.

Actually, they have the option of choosing both. Socialized will pick up necessities and if you want to go above and beyond that, like optional cosmetic surgery, it exists too. Socialized will pick up a hospital bed in a shared room, but if you want a private room hospitals are more than willing to take your money to upgrade.

To say private doesn't exist and social is the only option is dishonest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada
http://www.canadian-healthcare.org/page4.html

It is against the law to run for-profit private health-care for medically necessary procedures in canada. Yes, if you want cosmetic surgery, which is an optional non-medically-necessary procedure, you can get it, but for medically necessary prcedures, no, you cannot. Law enforcement regularly raids facilities in places such as quebec and alberta which offer such services. What politicians and wealthy people do to get around this is they travel to the usa or other places to get procedures which are not available to ordinary canadians.

Paying more for private hospital room when you aren't allowed the medical procedure you need anyway doesn't exactly cut it.

You are only allowed to use private insurance in canada for things the provinces don't cover publically, such as dental, drugs, etc. What makes it real interesting is it's a federal law which decides you can't have private insurance, but the provinces have jurisdiction to decide what they will cover, so each province is different.

Where some guy from california gets off telling me about healthcare where I live is interesting. My mother died because of poor health-care in canada (ontario).

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[skypuppy 1]

mistercwood

You don't have the option of choosing private over public in Canada? I was not aware of that, nor am I happy to hear it. That's messed up.

The one notable exception is professional sports athletes. And there is regularly an uprising over the fact that whenever one of them is injured they're in for their ct scans, etc before the end of the night, where an ordinary peon might have to wait weeks, if not months just to see a specialist who could order them a ct scan.

private for-profit use of medically-necessary procedures are illegal in Canada when covered by the provincial health plans. It is possible, on an extremely limited basis, that the province will pay for treatment somewhere else (ie in the US) if they deem you are eligible for treatment not available in canada but covered under the health-plan. However, it seems that this is usually turned down now, and if it is allowed, you have to get permission first, then go down and get the procedure done. Getting the permission will probably take you months if not a year of waiting-lists and specialists' appointments.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[Remster 30]

Quote

It is NOT true in Canada

You might want to double check that.

Remster

[skypuppy 1]

Remster

Quote

It is NOT true in Canada

You might want to double check that.

show me where that is wrong.

I am aware that there have been some differences in quebec, as in many gov't programs (some of those clinics in quebec have been shut down in the past). But the canada health act is pretty clear - private enterprise cannot compete with public health care. A private clinic could work on the basis of being paid by the gov't alone (no co-pay or user-pay), but that is still public health care, and subject to those rules of acceptance (ie, referrals and queues).

If a procedure is covered by the public health plan in your province of residence, you are not allowed to pay for it out of your own pocket in your province of residence, in order to escape the queue. If the procedure is covered, but is not available in your province the health plan may cover going to a different jurisdiction to have it done, however, again you are not just able to have it done and bring it back without being specifically referred by a specialist in your own province, which will again entail being in the queue, which can last months.

This includes simple ct or mri scans, which even though most of the machines are not operated more than one or two eight hour shifts per day, 5 days a week, are not available on for-profit basis during off-shifts, which is one reason the waiting lists get so long.

If you can pay for it yourself without worrying about any reimbursement, you can travel to the states, for instance, knowing that it will not be covered by your health plan.

5 years ago in ontario, eye exams were covered by the health plan - now they are not. This year the ontario gov't has decided to no longer cover annual medical exams, period. If you have a specific problem you can go in for a consult and it will be covered, but you can't just go in for an annual exam. (Exams for work purposes are not covered publically).

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[skypuppy 1]

more on the canadian health system, Steve paikin interviews Jeffrey Simpson, globe and mail reporter about his book, 'Chronic Condition'...

paying 'cadillac prices for a chevy system'...

http://ww3.tvo.org/video/184920/chronic-condition

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[Remster 30]

Quote

show me where that is wrong.

Quote

I am aware that there have been some differences in quebec, as in many gov't programs (some of those clinics in quebec have been shut down in the past). But the canada health act is pretty clear - private enterprise cannot compete with public health care. A private clinic could work on the basis of being paid by the gov't alone (no co-pay or user-pay), but that is still public health care, and subject to those rules of acceptance (ie, referrals and queues).

You showed it yourself.

Also, there is private insurance supplements in some other provinces. I know, I worked in them and paid the premiums.

This being said, the public system in Canada works. It's not perfect, but it works.

Remster

[steve1 5]

I've talked with one health care professional after another, who state that Obama Care is already having a great impact on health care coverage. Insurance companies can now, more easily, deny coverage than ever before. Things are different now than a year ago.

A year from now things may be far worse. I think that anyone who thinks that health care is going to suddenly be better is dreaming. I'd be willing to bet your own health coverage won't pay for what you think it will, right now. You may be very unaware of that unless you or someone in your family needs medical care.

What is Obama Care anyway? It seems to me that is hundreds of pages of jibberish. Do you realy think it is going to make things better?

Number one, in my mind, is who is going to pay for this grand plan? All the free loaders who will soon get free health care sure won't be.

Our health care system is money driven. The hospitals want to make a huge profit. The insurance companies won't pay for anything more than they have to. They are greedy as hell too. If you are expecting your insurance company to suddenly provide more in the future, you are sadly mistaken.....

After the 1st of the year things will change drastically. Yep, we are all waiting to see the results. Will someone please explain to me where all this money is going to come from to finance this fiasco.

To me it seems like it's going to be from the poor working stiff who already pays too much in taxes.

[popsjumper 2]

To those slamming anybody and everybody for "being denied treatment":

You missed where he said,

Quote

I thought I was well insured.....I found out differently. After a six month battle with my insurance company, they have concluded that they don't have to pay for a better treatment. Supposedly the cheap ones are just as good.

To the OP:
Is that truly the case that you were covered for the cheaper treatment but didn't get covered for what you think is better treatment?

From my experiences in life, more expensive does NOT necessarily mean better and the medical profession is not sacred in that respect. YMMV

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Fortunately for me personally, Obama care is a non-issue. It's all you other guys I feel sorry for right now. That may change after the program gets kicked in and all the wrinkles are ironed out. I don't see much hope for it right now, but who knows?

We won't know until we test drive it.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[skypuppy 1]

Remster

Quote

show me where that is wrong.

***I am aware that there have been some differences in quebec, as in many gov't programs (some of those clinics in quebec have been shut down in the past). But the canada health act is pretty clear - private enterprise cannot compete with public health care. A private clinic could work on the basis of being paid by the gov't alone (no co-pay or user-pay), but that is still public health care, and subject to those rules of acceptance (ie, referrals and queues).

You showed it yourself.

Also, there is private insurance supplements in some other provinces. I know, I worked in them and paid the premiums.

This being said, the public system in Canada works. It's not perfect, but it works.

Supplemental care is one thing - that is your private room. Or dental or optical coverage. Not medical treatment covered by your public health insurance

If the gov't covers your treatment, a private company cannot compete with the gov't. The only way a private company can work with the gov't is to take the normal pay the gov't would pay a doctor/hospital in the larger system to fund its work in its own facility, allowing it to specialize in something like shoulder surgeries, etc. But it cannot charge the patient for that, it is a one-payer system - the gov't. And therefore the gov't is still in charge of who gets in - via tests and referrals from specialists in the open system which can take months.

If they can't get you in for a ct scan for 3 months in your province, you cannot go to a private facility to get it done for cash (without going to Buffalo, say). Even then, the gov't system here may not decide that your condition warrants treatment from that scan.

Or if you go somewhere for surgery, the gov't system here may deny you any follow-up exams or treatment.

Many people here do not believe the canadian health care system works. I believe in the interview I linked, canada's costs are in the top 5 in the world, but the results are down in the middle of the pack.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[kelpdiver 2]

Stumpy

The NHS works very well the vast majority of the time. Sure, there are always going to be cases where things don't go right and people get upset for whatever reason, in ANY system. However, the most vocal people about how bad the UK health system is tend to be Americans with a political agenda.

Reverse UK and US and the this paragraph still reads true.

[skypuppy 1]

Remster

Quote

show me where that is wrong.

***I am aware that there have been some differences in quebec, as in many gov't programs (some of those clinics in quebec have been shut down in the past). But the canada health act is pretty clear - private enterprise cannot compete with public health care. A private clinic could work on the basis of being paid by the gov't alone (no co-pay or user-pay), but that is still public health care, and subject to those rules of acceptance (ie, referrals and queues).

You showed it yourself.

Also, there is private insurance supplements in some other provinces. I know, I worked in them and paid the premiums.

This being said, the public system in Canada works. It's not perfect, but it works.

From Simpson's interview

according to the

2010 commonwealth fund survey canada ranks 6th of 7 countries in healthcare overall

2011 commonwealth fund survey canada is 11th out of 11 for timeliness of treatment

2010 Euro-Canada Health consumer Index, canada ranks 25th out of 34 countries.

Canada has the longest wait times to see a specialist

Canada has the 2nd worst wait times for elective surgery.

Canada is 19th for number of MRI machines

Canada is 22nd for CT scanners per million people.

Canada has 2nd highest drug costs in the world. (Partly because unlike any other country, canada has 10 different buyers of drugs, each province buys it's own.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[steve1 5]

Quote

I thought I was well insured.....I found out differently. After a six month battle with my insurance company, they have concluded that they don't have to pay for a better treatment. Supposedly the cheap ones are just as good.

To the OP:
Is that truly the case that you were covered for the cheaper treatment but didn't get covered for what you think is better treatment?

From my experiences in life, more expensive does NOT necessarily mean better and the medical profession is not sacred in that respect. YMMV

...............................................................................

The treatment I wanted was about twice as much money as most of the others. In my opinion it was a lot better. I was backed into a corner and was forced to pick a cheaper treatment. The medical professionals all thought that whatever treatment they do is the best. I don't have a problem with that. It's important to believe in what you do for a living. Many of these professionals are quick to condemn other treatment options.

The insurance company is the party that I had huge problems with. There was no way they were going to pay twice as much money. After a six month appeal process they wormed their way out of paying a dime for the treatment I wanted. The hospital that was trying to help me kept saying that Obama Care is already allowing insurance companies to legally not pay.

I've since found a cheaper treatment that I also believe in.....I think it was a good 2nd choice. I lucked out. Others may not be so lucky.

The main reason I posted this was to ask....Is it really true that Obama Care is now affecting insurance coverage? I've had medical doctors tell me it is.

The second question still remains unanswered....Where is all the money going to come from to pay for Obama Care in the future. I heard it is going to take vastly more money than anyone could have predicted.

If you are poor, out of work, or too worthless to work, this probably sounds great. What could be better than free health care.

The school I work for met with an insurance company recently to discuss a different insurance plan. When the question concerning what was going to happen when Obama Care did kick in, the guy just shook his head. Finally he said higher premiums and less coverage.

I just don't have a very rosy outlook on any of this. I'm willing to listen if you think differently.