Mass shooting of the week - New Orleans

[Kennedy 0]

tkhayes

Just curious if u have a point to make. I do my homework and I post the info I find.

Bullshit, as shown by this very thread. You didn't bother to see if it was illegal to carry at a parade before bashing permit holders for failing to prevent a crime. Notably a crime that police presence failed to prevent.

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Most ofmthemright wing gun lobby is filled with lots of' what ifs' and 'me thinks'. And not much in the way of concrete solutions, just rhetoric.

Actually most of what the gun lobby does is try to stop left wing nutjobs from eroding a valuable, constitutionally protected civil right. Honestly I wouldn't have a problem with gun registration anymore than I have a problem with car registration if there weren't so many fools out there trying to ban and confiscate every firearm in the country.

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MANY MANY other places in the world clearly demonstrate that effective gun control reduces gun crime.

Yeah? Have laws enacting "effective car control" reduced car crime? Or do you think effective law enforcement and prosecution of offenders does more about "car crime"?

Have drug laws reduced drug crime?

You really need to get over your fear of guns and gun owners and realize that education, community involvement, and prosecuting and incarcerating violent criminals is the best way to reduce/prevent violent crime. Did you notice that I'm more concerned about violence than guns? Which do you worry more about? Violence? Or guns?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kallend 2,114]

Kennedy

Yeah? Have laws enacting "effective car control" reduced car crime?

Well, DUI is down significantly.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gravitymaster 0]

kallend

***

Yeah? Have laws enacting "effective car control" reduced car crime?

Well, DUI is down significantly.

And yet one can still purchase alcohol without a background check.

[Stumpy 284]

Gravitymaster

******

Yeah? Have laws enacting "effective car control" reduced car crime?

Well, DUI is down significantly.

And yet one can still purchase alcohol without a background check.

Nope. If you don't qualify for alcohol (i.e. are underage, or look it) then you can't.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[Kennedy 0]

Yes, it is, thanks to increased penalties and better enforcement. Isn't the what I've been saying? They didn't make things better by registering cars or alcohol. They went after the ones actually committing a crime.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[normiss 868]

None of those other places have a Second Amendment.
We do.

[Kennedy 0]

Stumpy

*********

Yeah? Have laws enacting "effective car control" reduced car crime?

Well, DUI is down significantly.

And yet one can still purchase alcohol without a background check.

Nope. If you don't qualify for alcohol (i.e. are underage, or look it) then you can't.

And that's good enough. They don't need to register or record every case of booze. They don't require background checks on person to person transactions. So if you're good with alcohol law as is, why not be good with gun laws "as is"?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Gravitymaster 0]

Stumpy

*********

Yeah? Have laws enacting "effective car control" reduced car crime?

Well, DUI is down significantly.

And yet one can still purchase alcohol without a background check.

Nope. If you don't qualify for alcohol (i.e. are underage, or look it) then you can't.

Nor can you purchase a gun if you are underage. Do you have a point somewhere?

[billvon 3,085]

>so the laws we already have against straw purchases make background
>checks of any kind ineffective.

Uh - no. They cut down on the number of guns purchased by criminals. Google the stats on how many guns used in crimes were obtained from firearms dealers who must do background checks. Now google how many guns used in crimes were obtained from friends, or other sources who were not firearms dealers.

Currently it is entirely legal for a third party to walk into a gun store, buy a gun (or pick it up after a waiting period) then decide to sell it to someone outside the door of the gun store, cash, no questions asked. No laws against that. Hence the high number of people who get guns that way (and similar ways.)

[billvon 3,085]

>Yes, it is, thanks to increased penalties and better enforcement.

Agreed. Proofing EVERYONE who buys alcohol - not just people who buy alcohol from federally licensed alcohol dealers - does indeed work to prevent underage drinking.

[Stumpy 284]

Kennedy

************

Yeah? Have laws enacting "effective car control" reduced car crime?

Well, DUI is down significantly.

And yet one can still purchase alcohol without a background check.

Nope. If you don't qualify for alcohol (i.e. are underage, or look it) then you can't.

And that's good enough. They don't need to register or record every case of booze. They don't require background checks on person to person transactions. So if you're good with alcohol law as is, why not be good with gun laws "as is"?

Because they could be better (As could most laws for that matter.). Background checks for person to person would be the one thing that is a logical improvement. I don't particularly agree with or advocate for assault weapons bans, hicap mags, registries, or anything like that, however the resistance to closing this one massive glaring loophole is moronic. Sure, people will still break the law, but lets make it a little more difficult for them.

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They don't require background checks on person to person transactions.

However I think it is a criminal offence to supply a minor with alcohol?

Genuine question - if you sell someone a gun person to person and they turn out to be a criminal, are you criminally liable?

(granted - the analogy is getting a little strained but it raises a good point)

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[Kennedy 0]

billvon

>Yes, it is, thanks to increased penalties and better enforcement.

Agreed. Proofing EVERYONE who buys alcohol - not just people who buy alcohol from federally licensed alcohol dealers - does indeed work to prevent underage drinking.

Really? You get ID checked when a jumper hands you a beer at the DZ? Do you get carded every single round you order, even if you haven't left the sight of the bartender? Would you be arrested and imprisoned for buying a drink for someone else, even if they are legally allowed to possess alcohol?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Stumpy 284]

And this is where the analogy is getting strained. Someone is not going to lose their right to drink in between drinks, whereas someone could easily lose their right to buy a gun.
You might not get your id checked when someone hands you a beer at the dz, but if you are underage, then that jumper has done something illegal.

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Would you be arrested and imprisoned for buying a drink for someone else, even if they are legally allowed to possess alcohol?

Of course not. If they were not legally allowed you could get in trouble however.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[popsjumper 2]

billvon

>Yes, it is, thanks to increased penalties and better enforcement.

Agreed. Proofing EVERYONE who buys alcohol - not just people who buy alcohol from federally licensed alcohol dealers - does indeed work to prevent underage drinking.

Thank God it didn't work when I was underage.


Ummmmmm.....maybe that wasn't such a good thing after all.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 3,085]

>Would you be arrested and imprisoned for buying a drink for someone else,
>even if they are legally allowed to possess alcohol?

Nope. But you do get arrested for buying beer for someone else who's not allowed to possess it, and you do get arrested for selling beer to people who are legally barred from buying it. Even if you know them really well. Even if you're just at a beer show. Even if you're not a beer distributor.

Not a bad model to follow.

[Kennedy 0]

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Because they could be better (As could most laws for that matter.). Background checks for person to person would be the one thing that is a logical improvement. I don't particularly agree with or advocate for assault weapons bans, hicap mags, registries, or anything like that, however the resistance to closing this one massive glaring loophole is moronic. Sure, people will still break the law, but lets make it a little more difficult for them.

You make a good point but are missing another. If you require background checks for all person to person sales, there are only two ways to prove a check was performed: either the BATFE keeps a record of all sales (de facto registration) or you require every person to keep records like 4473 that every dealer keeps on file. Forever. And require that they have them available for ATF inspection.

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Genuine question - if you sell someone a gun person to person and they turn out to be a criminal, are you criminally liable?

Depends on the state. At the federal level, as a private person selling to another, no, I don't think so. At federal level for FFLs, yes, that is an offense to get your license yanked and possibly criminally charged.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Stumpy 284]

Kennedy

either the BATFE keeps a record of all sales (de facto registration)

Surely it would be a register of all checks, not all sales? And therefore of no use as a registration tool?

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[kallend 2,114]

Gravitymaster

******

Yeah? Have laws enacting "effective car control" reduced car crime?

Well, DUI is down significantly.

And yet one can still purchase alcohol without a background check.

Then why do I get carded when I buy beer at the local supermarket, despite obviously being over 21?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

Kennedy

***>Yes, it is, thanks to increased penalties and better enforcement.

Agreed. Proofing EVERYONE who buys alcohol - not just people who buy alcohol from federally licensed alcohol dealers - does indeed work to prevent underage drinking.

Really? You get ID checked when a jumper hands you a beer at the DZ? Do you get carded every single round you order, even if you haven't left the sight of the bartender? Would you be arrested and imprisoned for buying a drink for someone else, even if they are legally allowed to possess alcohol?

For that matter, even in the liquor store, I don't see them calling a federal agency and asking them for permission to sell me a bottle of mixer. Let alone requiring it for each of the scenarios you are correctly bringing up.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

kallend

Then why do I get carded when I buy beer at the local supermarket, despite obviously being over 21?

1 - you look very young for your age

2 - do they keep a record of checking your ID? do they call into the government to see if the ID is current? during the call, do they ask what kind of beer you just bought?

that's not a background check - it's an ID check - local....no records.....no issue.....

so show me a similar process for guns and we can talk

(actually - in the government owned liquor stores around here, they do want to scan your Driver's License at the register now as part of the ID check - do you want to take any bets on whether they are collecting your actual purchases and tracking it against your license? perhaps for marketing purposes or any other reason?)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Gravitymaster 0]

kallend

*********

Yeah? Have laws enacting "effective car control" reduced car crime?

Well, DUI is down significantly.

And yet one can still purchase alcohol without a background check.

Then why do I get carded when I buy beer at the local supermarket, despite obviously being over 21?

So you think showing ID to purchase alcohol is comparable to having a background check done? Seriously??

Do you think they check to see if you have any DWI's or Public Intoxication on your record?

[kallend 2,114]

Gravitymaster

************

Yeah? Have laws enacting "effective car control" reduced car crime?

Well, DUI is down significantly.

And yet one can still purchase alcohol without a background check.

Then why do I get carded when I buy beer at the local supermarket, despite obviously being over 21?

So you think showing ID to purchase alcohol is comparable to having a background check done? Seriously??

Do you think they check to see if you have any DWI's or Public Intoxication on your record?

Different way of achieving the exact same purpose - to see that I'm eligible for the purchase.

And I don't get my panties in a wad over being checked for eligibility, unlike you gun enthusiasts.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,114]

rehmwa

(actually - in the government owned liquor stores around here, they do want to scan your Driver's License at the register now as part of the ID check - do you want to take any bets on whether they are collecting your actual purchases and tracking it against your license? perhaps for marketing purposes or any other reason?)

Target stores do that around here.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

kallend

***

(actually - in the government owned liquor stores around here, they do want to scan your Driver's License at the register now as part of the ID check - do you want to take any bets on whether they are collecting your actual purchases and tracking it against your license? perhaps for marketing purposes or any other reason?)

Target stores do that around here.

that stinks really for a private company to have that data - but imagine if Target had your entire purchase history, and also had the potential legislative power to take your income (and they WANT your income very much), confiscate your property, and pass laws to try to affect your social behavior and voting patterns

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Gravitymaster 0]

kallend

***************

Yeah? Have laws enacting "effective car control" reduced car crime?

Well, DUI is down significantly.

And yet one can still purchase alcohol without a background check.

Then why do I get carded when I buy beer at the local supermarket, despite obviously being over 21?

So you think showing ID to purchase alcohol is comparable to having a background check done? Seriously??

Do you think they check to see if you have any DWI's or Public Intoxication on your record?

Different way of achieving the exact same purpose - to see that I'm eligible for the purchase.

And I don't get my panties in a wad over being checked for eligibility, unlike you gun enthusiasts.

Should someone who has ever had a DUI or DIP be banned from purchasing alcohol in your world?