Gun Policy & Law Enforcement: Survey Results

[rushmc 23]

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Rush, in the sampling and polling unit, they told you about how to randomize appropriately for the population you're trying to work with. If you're only trying to convince LEO's, this is possibly a dandy poll -- self-selected, but at least within a somewhat relevant population.

But if you're trying to convince the general public, it's no more valid than a poll of dz.com users, or a poll of hospital workers (I've seen those), or a poll of newspaper reporters -- those all reflect those populations, but no one else.

People tend to listen to stuff that they want to believe, or that people like them believe (confirmation bias). Do you think an atheist would believe a poll of Christians about the nature of God? Or do you think that a conservative Christian would believe a poll of liberal Christians on the roles of men and women in families? Probably not.

A poll of self-selected LEO's should be added to the body of knowledge, but it's no more than a single data point. The fact that you inherently trust those people doesn't make it more meaningful for something that's trying to gauge public opinion. Public opinion has to include the people you disagree wiht -- they're also part of the public.

Wendy P.

I have yet to make any claim about the poll

I only stated for consideration

I find it interesting

But many do not like the results
Hence all the bs

I is a survey of a group of LEO's
That is it

The remarks comments and insults are fun

Dont you think?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

thilly?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,588]

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I have yet to make any claim about the poll

Well, actually, you disagreed that there was a sampling fail. There's only a sampling fail if you acknowledge that it's a poll of a limited group, likely to have a particular result. Kind of like polling atheists or young-earth fundamentalists on evolution, and then saying you found it interesting.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Senators Lose Support After Opposing Gun Background Checks, Poll Shows

If my senators had the spine to do what's right and oppose the bill they'd have my support and I'll probably send some money to those that did when they're facing reelection.

While universal background checks might be good that'd be the cherry on top of the bill's crap sundae.

The bill required all transfers to go through a dealer. While the National Alliance of Stocking Gun Dealers supports that move to boost profits (like the mail order ban in GCA 1968) I don't.

I've had guns held hostage by transferring dealers that decided after receiving the shipment they wanted 10% of the invoice value.

Here in California where all transfers must go through dealers although we require

1. All dealers to perform private party transfers

2. Dealers to perform the transfer for no more than $10 on top of what they collect for the state Dealer Record Of Sale process.

some break the law and refuse to do such transfers because they don't like the price competition with their new and used gun inventories, some technically do but add hour long waits, and some on the wrong side of the NRA duck hunter/black rifle schism illegally refuse to transfer such guns and send customers down the road.

Those problems aren't worth any impact such a law may have on criminals getting guns.

As written the bill also made it illegal to shoot non-family member friends' guns on public land which is completely unacceptable.

If congress people want universal background checks they should write a law which stops at requiring them and not add the problems which go with getting dealers in the middle of every transfer. Give non-licensees access to the same National Instant Check System that dealers have access to, require its use, and offer to escrow evidence of a legal transfer if people don't want to risk loosing paper records.

Real compromise may help pass such legislation.

com-pro-mise Noun. An agreement or a settlement of a dispute that is reached by each side making concessions.

That'd would be where each side gives up something and gains something; not where one side gives up less than the other party originally wanted like a mugger settling for half your money and mobile devices.

A good compromise would be including a provision creating a shooter's Federal Firearms License with the same requirements for an 03 C&R that allows interstate transfers of firearms without the hassle of going through dealers with a prohibition on state laws that would interfere with that.

I and a lot of other shooting enthusiasts would support such a bill.

[rushmc 23]

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I have yet to make any claim about the poll

Well, actually, you disagreed that there was a sampling fail. There's only a sampling fail if you acknowledge that it's a poll of a limited group, likely to have a particular result. Kind of like polling atheists or young-earth fundamentalists on evolution, and then saying you found it interesting.

Wendy P.

Ok
So you think that LEO's are pre-disposed to support 2nd Amendment rights more than gun control measures?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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Well, hey, if they want to oppose background checks, they should be willing to pay the price for going against what 90% of Americans want.

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Senators Lose Support After Opposing Gun Background Checks, Poll Shows

Posted: 04/29/2013 11:54 am EDT

Senators in several states who voted earlier this month against increasing background checks for gun buyers have since seen their approval ratings noticeably drop, according to new polls released Monday by the Democratic firm Public Policy Polling.

Sen. Lisa Murkowski's (R-Alaska) net approval rating dropped 16 points, as she shed much of her previous cross-party appeal. Sen. Rob Portman (R-Ohio) saw his numbers dive 18 points, from a positive to a negative rating.

Not all of the change can be attributed to the vote. Portman, for instance, saw his approval drop among Republicans when he announced his support for gay marriage in March. But in Alaska, Arizona, Nevada and Ohio, at least 60 percent of voters supported background checks, and many expressed disappointment with politicians who voted otherwise.

Fifty-two percent of Arizona voters said they were less likely to support Sen. Jeff Flake (R) for reelection due to his "no" vote, while 46 percent of Nevadans said the same of Sen. Dean Heller (R). More than a third of voters were less likely to back Portman as well as Alaska Sens. Mark Begich (D) and Murkowski. A previous PPP poll found that Sen. Kelly Ayotte (R-N.H.) also saw her ratings tumble 15 points, likely due in part to her vote against background checks.

Much of the lost support comes from independent or moderate voters.
=====================

There is a reason why you dont posts sights related to your copy pastes


http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2013/04/30/Ben-Smith-Chuck-Todd-Gun-Control-Poll

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,588]

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So you think that LEO's are pre-disposed to support 2nd Amendment rights more than gun control measures?

I think it depends on what specific question is asked, and how it's asked.

DrewEckhart put together a really good post on some of the problems that he saw with the system as it operates in California, and how he generalized that to the bill that recently failed in Congress.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 23]

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So you think that LEO's are pre-disposed to support 2nd Amendment rights more than gun control measures?

I think it depends on what specific question is asked, and how it's asked.

DrewEckhart put together a really good post on some of the problems that he saw with the system as it operates in California, and how he generalized that to the bill that recently failed in Congress.

Wendy P.

Every question is in the link
I guess you did not read it

And you still did not answer my question

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,588]

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And you still did not answer my question

I know what I feel, but that's not based on any data, so I'm loath to act on it. I read some of the questions and got distracted, but my statement was a general one.

I have a feeling that it would be easy to put together a poll that LEOs would answer in a way that made it seem they wanted to limit 2nd amendment rights in some way, and that it would be easy to put together a poll that made it seem as though they wanted no limits whatsoever, including felons and people with mental health issues.

It's all about the wording and the spin . Not yours, the poll's

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 23]

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And you still did not answer my question

I know what I feel, but that's not based on any data, so I'm loath to act on it. I read some of the questions and got distracted, but my statement was a general one.

I have a feeling that it would be easy to put together a poll that LEOs would answer in a way that made it seem they wanted to limit 2nd amendment rights in some way, and that it would be easy to put together a poll that made it seem as though they wanted no limits whatsoever, including felons and people with mental health issues.

It's all about the wording and the spin . Not yours, the poll's

Wendy P.

I understand what you are saying but

Read the poll

Very direct non-leading questions

And I am not asking you to act on anything

You made a statement about the poll that indicates to me you have an opinion about LEO's stand in general on private gun ownership. So I am asking you about your opinion

Why will you not answer?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,588]

I would not say they are universally non-leading, but in this case it's opinion, and only that. Some are, some (like the "would you enforce gun laws" one) are pretty leading.

Consider an alternate wording of the "gun laws" questions:

Do you think that laws pertaining to firearms should be enforced?

Do you think that, as an LEO, you should have discretion on what laws you can enforce?

Think those would be answered the same? That part's all about spin.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 23]

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I would not say they are universally non-leading, but in this case it's opinion, and only that. Some are, some (like the "would you enforce gun laws" one) are pretty leading.

Consider an alternate wording of the "gun laws" questions:

Do you think that laws pertaining to firearms should be enforced?

Do you think that, as an LEO, you should have discretion on what laws you can enforce?

Think those would be answered the same? That part's all about spin.

Wendy P.

Ah


Ok

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mistercwood 287]

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Ok
So you think that LEO's are pre-disposed to support 2nd Amendment rights more than gun control measures?

Question 24 would suggest, at the very least, yes. 14 and 15, also. Those were very disappointing to see.

Interesting responses overall. Some of them may have had different results if the option was available to choose multiple answers - question 21 stands out here. My primary gripe would be the bit where they summarise at the end and round up the percentages of current vs former LEOs to 80% and 20%, and ignore the 5.2% who answered neither and thus should have been removed from the sample pool completely. Sloppy.

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[rushmc 23]

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Ok
So you think that LEO's are pre-disposed to support 2nd Amendment rights more than gun control measures?

Question 24 would suggest, at the very least, yes. 14 and 15, also. Those were very disappointing to see.

Interesting responses overall. Some of them may have had different results if the option was available to choose multiple answers - question 21 stands out here. My primary gripe would be the bit where they summarise at the end and round up the percentages of current vs former LEOs to 80% and 20%, and ignore the 5.2% who answered neither and thus should have been removed from the sample pool completely. Sloppy.

Thanks for your reply

An honest set of comments based on what was there

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,588]

OTOH, now you have more people actually looking at the poll in some detail -- I'd call that a win-win situation for everyone.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 23]

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OTOH, now you have more people actually looking at the poll in some detail -- I'd call that a win-win situation for everyone.

Wendy P.

A silver lining

Good for you

Thanks
(you usually are a glass half full kind of person)

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,148]

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thilly?

The Thunder God went out to ride
Upon his favorite filly.
"I'm Thor!" he cried.
The horse replied
"Then use a thaddle, thilly".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Andy9o8 2]

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I have yet to make any claim about the poll

Well, actually, you disagreed that there was a sampling fail. There's only a sampling fail if you acknowledge that it's a poll of a limited group, likely to have a particular result. Kind of like polling atheists or young-earth fundamentalists on evolution, and then saying you found it interesting.

Wendy P.

Ok
So you think that LEO's are pre-disposed to support 2nd Amendment rights more than gun control measures?

From my own experience living (and working w/a lot of LEOs) in various parts of the country, it seems at least partly influenced by regional culture. In the Northeast (New England & Mid-Atlantic) part of the country, where civilian gun (especially pistol) ownership is not very common, and firearms are not a big part of the civilian culture, civilian gun rights issues are not part of the mindset or social conversation as much as in other parts of the country. Many LEOs in the Northeast did not grow up with guns in their parents' homes, either. So in a lot of the Northeast, police historically have favored gun control because they just want as many guns out of circulation as possible; and they want that because they view other peoples' guns as a hazard to their (the cops') lives while they're on the job. That segment of LEOs would probably be counted on to enforce gun control laws pretty faithfully.

The LEOs who I might expect to be more concerned about gun control legislation from a 2nd Amendment perspective may more frequently be those in regions of the country where firearms are part of routine civilian culture, gun rights are an important part of the social conversation, and the officers as likely as not grew up with firearms.

[rushmc 23]

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I have yet to make any claim about the poll

Well, actually, you disagreed that there was a sampling fail. There's only a sampling fail if you acknowledge that it's a poll of a limited group, likely to have a particular result. Kind of like polling atheists or young-earth fundamentalists on evolution, and then saying you found it interesting.

Wendy P.

Ok
So you think that LEO's are pre-disposed to support 2nd Amendment rights more than gun control measures?

From my own experience living (and working w/a lot of LEOs) in various parts of the country, it seems at least partly influenced by regional culture. In the Northeast (New England & Mid-Atlantic) part of the country, where civilian gun (especially pistol) ownership is not very common, and firearms are not a big part of the civilian culture, civilian gun rights issues are not part of the mindset or social conversation as much as in other parts of the country. Many LEOs in the Northeast did not grow up with guns in their parents' homes, either. So in a lot of the Northeast, police historically have favored gun control because they just want as many guns out of circulation as possible; and they want that because they view other peoples' guns as a hazard to their (the cops') lives while they're on the job. That segment of LEOs would probably be counted on to enforce gun control laws pretty faithfully.

The LEOs who I might expect to be more concerned about gun control legislation from a 2nd Amendment perspective may more frequently be those in regions of the country where firearms are part of routine civilian culture, gun rights are an important part of the social conversation, and the officers as likely as not grew up with firearms.

Points noted
Thanks

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,116]

On the question as to why the bill failed with 90% of Americans supporting universal background checks, Pat Toomey gave a surprisingly honest answer:

"In the end it didn't pass because we're so politicized. There were some on my side who did not want to be seen helping the president do something that he wanted to get done."

[rushmc 23]

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On the question as to why the bill failed with 90% of Americans supporting universal background checks, Pat Toomey gave a surprisingly honest answer:

"In the end it didn't pass because we're so politicized. There were some on my side who did not want to be seen helping the president do something that he wanted to get done."

Good for him
One reason is one reason

The best reason is it stupid law

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[livendive 8]

Limiting the sampling to members of PoliceOne.com is no more representative of the LEO community than sampling NRA members is representative of gun owners as a whole. I imagine its safe to say that all, or at least the vast majority of NRA members are gun owners, but that doesn't mean they're representative of all gun owners...only the activist ones. I'm a gun owner, and believe quite firmly in protecting 2nd amendment rights, but I'm not an NRA member, and I disagree with a lot of their stances.

Compounding the fact that PoliceOne.com membership is a subset of the LEO community is the fact that they got a response rate of less than 4%. This means that less than 1 in 20 members of a subset of the population cared enough to answer the questions. It's perfectly reasonable to conclude that the other 96% of PoliceOne.com members and 100% of the non-PoliceOne LEO community may have a different opinion than expressed by this subset of a subset. In other words, regardless of what the survey results reflect, the opinion is meaningless with regard to the supersets in which the respondents reside.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[kelpdiver 2]

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So you think that LEO's are pre-disposed to support 2nd Amendment rights more than gun control measures?

This goes back to the problems with self selection. Even presuming that this PoliceOne org's memebership is representative of cops in general, the ones that are going to opt to answer the survey are the ones that have stronger feelings on the subject, be they positive or negative. Yet overall, I think it's fair to say the line officers favor gun rights for citizens. So you end up with a very unrepresentative response population due to the selection bias.

The size of it doesn't matter. It's the fact that the responders picked themselves.

[rushmc 23]

The size of it doesn't matter. It's the fact that the responders picked themselves.