ESA Says Space Junk Must Be Removed

[lawrocket 3]

Mascons are pretty well known. An object in earth orbit does have some hiccups but the mass perturbations here are fairly minor compared to what the moon can do to an orbit.

The moon is a different story. It's gravity field is so lumpy that trajectory specialists were spooked over what it would do to landing plans. In fact, there are only about four inclinations wherein stable orbit around the moon can be accomplished. A satellite released by Apollo 16 when it left lasted a month in orbit before it crashed. It was supposed to maintain an orbit of 55x75 miles in altitude. Within a couple of weeks the 55 miles became 6 miles. Then it bounced back to about 5 miles. Then it hit the moon.

For all intents and purposes, anything up above 400 miles will be there a while (shape has a lot to do, as well). The geostationary will be there long after we are here - tens of thousands of years for their orbits to decay to reentry. Earth's mascons have some influence over hundreds of years.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[skydiver30960 0]

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Mascons are pretty well known...

...The moon is a different story. It's gravity field is so lumpy that trajectory specialists were spooked over what it would do to landing plans.

Tycho Magnetic Anomaly 1?


Elvisio "I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that right now" Rodriguez

[lawrocket 3]

I've had some opportunity to think about it. I believe that I've understated the risk a bit. Many of you have offered a different perspective.

Thanks.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[ryoder 1,590]

This is a job for United Galaxy Sanitation Patrol!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYZWP80opd4

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[oldwomanc6 60]

Who's paying for it, and how's it supposed to be accomplished?

lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

[quade 4]

It is amazing to realize what passed for "comedy" in that time period.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[BillyVance 35]

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This is a job for United Galaxy Sanitation Patrol!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYZWP80opd4

I don't care who you are, that was some funny shit.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[JackC1 0]

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Mascons are pretty well known. An object in earth orbit does have some hiccups but the mass perturbations here are fairly minor compared to what the moon can do to an orbit.

The moon is a different story. It's gravity field is so lumpy that trajectory specialists were spooked over what it would do to landing plans. In fact, there are only about four inclinations wherein stable orbit around the moon can be accomplished. A satellite released by Apollo 16 when it left lasted a month in orbit before it crashed. It was supposed to maintain an orbit of 55x75 miles in altitude. Within a couple of weeks the 55 miles became 6 miles. Then it bounced back to about 5 miles. Then it hit the moon.

For all intents and purposes, anything up above 400 miles will be there a while (shape has a lot to do, as well). The geostationary will be there long after we are here - tens of thousands of years for their orbits to decay to reentry. Earth's mascons have some influence over hundreds of years.

Orbital decay is one thing but satellites don't stay in the orbit you've put them in. They require periodic maintenance to their station keeping via thrusters to stop them from being sucked towards these hot spots. When the fuel runs out, the satellite just drifts without anything to stop it. It's like having a car cruising down the freeway with no driver. And since a high orbit is very long lived, these driver-less satellites stay on the freeway virtually indefinitely wandering around wherever the gravitational fluctuations take them.

[Andy9o8 3]

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It's like having a car cruising down the freeway with no driver. And since a high orbit is very long lived, these driver-less satellites stay on the freeway virtually indefinitely wandering around wherever the gravitational fluctuations take them.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CAmssPR7qdY/UK-hZvvHfsI/AAAAAAAAADg/0sEvTYpv4PQ/s1600/IMG_0788.JPG

[ryoder 1,590]

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This is a job for United Galaxy Sanitation Patrol!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYZWP80opd4

I don't care who you are, that was some funny shit.

Any show that includes scantily-clad, hot, identical twins, can't be all bad.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[kallend 2,182]

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Mascons are pretty well known...

...The moon is a different story. It's gravity field is so lumpy that trajectory specialists were spooked over what it would do to landing plans.

Tycho Magnetic Anomaly 1?


Elvisio "I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that right now" Rodriguez

That is so 12 years ago.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[BillyVance 35]

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This is a job for United Galaxy Sanitation Patrol!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYZWP80opd4

I don't care who you are, that was some funny shit.

Any show that includes scantily-clad, hot, identical twins, can't be all bad.

I would have liked to have had a 3 some with them back in the day... then again, the line goes around the block... ah fuck it.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[billvon 3,132]

>Who's paying for it

I'd say the people that caused the mess to begin with.

>and how's it supposed to be accomplished?

Lots of ways:

http://www.tethers.com/tt.html
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&ved=0CGsQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fswfound.org%2Fmedia%2F95459%2FSun-Tether_Deorbit_Method-Nov2012PPT-final.pdf&ei=xqB6UdLUAu_oiwK974C4DQ&usg=AFQjCNHaJpPk_dX4-WIVcEKxvzHs4reMhg&sig2=fvWCLoOnbLYqXInynV638A&bvm=bv.45645796,d.cGE
http://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/9-concepts-cleaning-space-junk.html

[labrys 0]

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Again, the exception is geostationary orbit where they are all at the altitude of 22,236 miles directly over the equator (and generally clustered). A collision there certainly would cause a very bad day, which would cause chain reactions making geosynchronous orbits unusable for the next 50,000 years

This isn't right at all. Geostationary birds are not "clustered", they're spaced around the equator at roughly 2 degree intervals all the way around the equator. 2 degrees seems small at ground level, but when you take that out 23,000 miles or so it's a significant distance.

Galaxy 15 lost its mind after a solar flare a few years ago and went figure 8-ing around it's neighbors in a +/- inclined orbit. Big sky applied. Not that it couldn't have hit another satellite, but the odds were incredibly small.

It eventually ran out of its safety margin fuel and "rebooted" as designed. If it hadn't, the worst case would have been a random collision with another bird in proximity.

What you're suggesting is that 1 big sky anomaly would have a domino affect and any disrupted geosynchronous bird will then take out multiple neighbors.

That's seriously silly.

Analogy:

Space 180 dominoes in a 360 degree circle. scale it to reflect the actual size of the domino(satellite... bout the same size as a school bus) compared to the distance between 2 points separated at 2 degrees 23000 miles away.

Owned by Remi #?

[sfzombie 3]

the point isn't really a satellite hitting another one, it's a satellite (or 4 inch chunk of one) hitting either a spacecraft trying to go somewhere or an astronaut (or space station). that would cause some serious damage to a person, and could potentially either disable or destroy a spacecraft. at least that's what i got from reading about it last year sometime.

http://kitswv.com

[labrys 0]

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A collision there certainly would cause a very bad day, which would cause chain reactions making geosynchronous orbits unusable for the next 50,000 years

I was responding to this really overboard analysis. Why would a collision make the Clarke Belt unusable for 50,000 years?

Owned by Remi #?

[quade 4]

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[I was responding to this really overboard analysis. Why would a collision make the Clarke Belt unusable for 50,000 years?

I was unaware that when two satellites collided all their pieces stayed clumped together.

While the Clarke Belt satellites are MUCH further away and spaced out MUCH more than the ones closer in, you don't happen to know what the F happened to Telstar 401 do you? 'Cause like, one day I was using it and then the next . . . uh . . . okay, I guess we'll start rescheduling feeds.

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The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[champu 1]

Spacecraft, manned or not, hitting each other or debris is not good because spacecraft and astronauts aren't cheap, and because it compounds the problem.

Her point was that a lot of the discussion in this thread is wonky. You need to understand orbits, orbital dynamics, launch vehicle staging, etc. to understand the problem, and to understand the implications for each of the various popular orbital regimes.

[sfzombie 3]

i wasn't referring to her post alone, i was referring to the subject of the thread. it seems that soon after it started, it started veering off course. yes, satellites would be affected, and there are more of them than anything else up there, but i would like to think that no matter how expensive or vital they are, that human life would be worth more.

and the solution could be as simple as orbiting electromagnets.

and i do agree that the discussion is wonky, to say the least.

http://kitswv.com

[ryoder 1,590]

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and the solution could be as simple as orbiting electromagnets.

Just how many satellites are made of iron and steel???

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Andy9o8 3]

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and the solution could be as simple as orbiting electromagnets.

Just how many satellites are made of iron and steel???

The ones that aren't made from Kryptonite, silly.

[turtlespeed 226]

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and the solution could be as simple as orbiting electromagnets.

Just how many satellites are made of iron and steel???

The ones that aren't made from Kryptonite, silly.

Unobtanium!

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[champu 1]

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I was responding to this really overboard analysis. Why would a collision make the Clarke Belt unusable for 50,000 years?

I was unaware that when two satellites collided all their pieces stayed clumped together.

It depends on what you mean by "clumped together." And depending on what orbit your two objects started in, the debris may scatter into a collection of orbits that does look an awful lot like a clump.

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While the Clarke Belt satellites are MUCH further away and spaced out MUCH more than the ones closer in, you don't happen to know what the F happened to Telstar 401 do you? 'Cause like, one day I was using it and then the next . . . uh . . . okay, I guess we'll start rescheduling feeds.

Satellites will encounter problems on orbit. It's not a friendly place for electronics. Some orbits are worse than others. When you design your system you have to pay very close attention to all those states you don't normally care about or that you didn't think had a logical path into them, and make sure you have logical (and in some cases autonomous) paths out of them. Some designers are still learning the lesson the hard way (see Phobos Grunt) but I'd compare the challenge to trying to make a consumer device that's impossible to brick. Non-trivial, certainly.

[labrys 0]

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you don't happen to know what the F happened to Telstar 401 do you?

Well, yeah.. it broke in 1997. So far, it hasn't cascaded out of control and destroyed geo sat communications for the next 50,000 years.

Owned by Remi #?

[quade 4]

Your angle is greater than 90 degrees.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver