since when does torturing animals constitute free speech?

[regulator 0]

This fucking pisses me off on so many levels.

HOUSTON — Animal lovers could never imagine deliberately torturing and maiming an animal, so a judge’s ruling on a case involving such behavior has touched off a firestorm in Houston.

At issue was the case against Ashley Richards and Brent Justice, the couple arrested last August and accused of making so-called “crush” videos of animals and selling them on the Internet.

A seven-count federal grand jury indictment accused Richards and Justice of making eight videos of puppies, chickens and kittens being tortured and killed.

In one case, Justice used a meat cleaver to slash a puppy’s neck, cut off its tail and slice its leg, according to court records. The pit bull pup died.

Richards allegedly killed a cat by slitting its throat and stomping its eye with her shoe heel.

Authorities said the couple killed the animals in their southwest Houston home.

Last week, a federal judge dismissed five of seven federal counts against them and cited the free speech clause of the 1st Amendment as justification for his decision.

“I don’t believe he was thinking of the consequences,” said Jennifer Thomas.

“It’s horrible,” Sharon Vangessel added.

KHOU 11 News legal expert attorney Gerald Treece offered a different interpretation of the law.

“You’ve got to stand back and say the 1st Amendment does protect offensive expression, but it’s not absolute,” Treece said.

He believes the case could be kicked up to a higher court. People at the dog park were hoping he was right.

“I think the disturbing thing is that there is a market for videos of torturing animals,” said Jim Ballard. “If we had videos of torturing children, would he have said the same thing?”

http://www.khou.com/news/crime/Judge-dismisses-charges-against-couple-accused-of-torturing-of-animals-204211521.html

[sfzombie 3]

that's a sign of where the country is headed. burning the flag was borderline, but it's allowed as an expression of free speech. does it piss me off? yes, but i fought in 2 wars so that someone could do it. this is fucking pathetic.

http://kitswv.com

[regulator 0]

I want to know the name of the judge that rendered this verdict. He should be disbarred and never be able to be a judge again.

[DanG 1]

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that's a sign of where the country is headed. burning the flag was borderline, but it's allowed as an expression of free speech. does it piss me off? yes, but i fought in 2 wars so that someone could do it. this is fucking pathetic.

The flag is an inanimate object. Not the same thing at all.

I'd like to read more, since the judge dismissed only 5 of the 7 counts. If the two remaining counts were for animal cruelty, and the five dismissed were related to speech somehow, then maybe this makes sense.

- Dan G

[regulator 0]

Here you go...it was this dude.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sim_Lake

[regulator 0]

Dan these scumbags killed animals for the pure joy of it. Now that he is dropping the charges it seems like he just allowed them to go out and do it all over again. I'm not remotely cool with that.

I dont care how many he dropped. These assholes need to be punished to the full extent of the law.

[Andy9o8 3]

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I want to know the name of the judge that rendered this verdict. He should be disbarred and never be able to be a judge again.

Judges make stupid and wrong decisions all the time. Wrongness alone is grounds for reversal on appeal; it's not grounds for either disbarment or impeachment.

[regulator 0]

I agree with that you say completely.

But I can dream cant I?

Seriously this is setting a precident that its TOTALLY OK to go out and torture and kill animals...all under the protection of the 1st amendment.

[DanG 1]

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I'm not remotely cool with that.

I'm not either. I'm just curious about the rest of the story. The linked article is pretty short on details. What charges were dropped? What charges weren't? Did the judge really say that animal torture is protected by the 1st Amendment? Seems unlikely, but straneger things have happened.

- Dan G

[rehmwa 2]

What terrible things to do to puppies!!!

kittens and birds?? meh

edit: retroactive smiley added here ==>

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[regulator 0]

Thats just like saying...oh its ok to diferrentiate between black babies and asian babies.

They are all innocent. They dont deserve to be tortured and killed just like so many others.


Does this mean you think Kermit Gosnell is an OK guy just getting a bad rap?

[rehmwa 2]

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Thats just like saying...oh its ok to diferrentiate between black babies and asian babies.

just like Hitler would

(I think it's horrible overall, but there's not much to talk about since I doubt anyone will disagree. So it's pretty much going to degenerate into posturing and commiserating emotional outrage. Thus - cat people vs dog people tangent.

You have the option to continue to curse and call names and flex a bit and tell everyone how you'd handle the judge and the two jerks if got them into a room alone. I'm confident that a higher court review will come to the correct decision and the two will get a fitting punishment.)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Does this mean you think Kermit Gosnell is an OK guy just getting a bad rap?

I'll have to look him up before responding....I'm just visualizing a green puppet at this point....one second...



oooooh - THAT guy. No, I'd like to get into a small room so i can peel the skin off of him slowly. it would be worth the jail time. that wouldn't be justice, per se, but that's pretty bad evil there.....

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[regulator 0]

Yeah I agree. Unfortunately right now they are looking at two years. And as we all know two years in state pen equals 3-6 months. Not very fitting for the crimes they perpetrated.

[billvon 3,132]

>>What terrible things to do to puppies!!! kittens and birds?? meh

>They are all innocent.

Birds are? Do turkeys and chickens fall under the same sort of protection?

[rehmwa 2]

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Not very fitting for the crimes they perpetrated.

it's not my job to decide what's fitting or not - personal outrage is a bad gage for this kind of thing.....

tough call

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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>>What terrible things to do to puppies!!! kittens and birds?? meh

>They are all innocent.

Birds are? Do turkeys and chickens fall under the same sort of protection?

innocent and delicious



actually, to the OP topic....

Freedom of Speech is a bit twisted when applied to 'art' (or whatever people call it), and expression other that word and print.....But it's clear that it's only limited by the law, especially in terms of 'inferential' speech.

Example - Flag burning. I guess we are supposed to infer or "feel" that the "speaker" is expressing distaste for something they may or may not feel about the country that flag belongs to. Though more effective speech would be to come right out and say it....clearly they are cowardly, or bad with words, so they feel they need to elicit an emotional response....maybe because they haven't put any thought or logic into their actual position.....

So - they are free to burn a flag. Their flag. They are NOT allowed to burn another's flag without his permission (that's stealing and arson). They are NOT allowed to burn the flag and risk fire to another's property or in a way to put others in danger. They are NOT allowed force others to watch them burn the flag, they are NOT......

the point is to exercise the right without breaking other laws, or infringing on other's rights. Then one can exercise their rights in as stupid a fashion as they care to.


Filming animal torture is pretty stupid. there are already laws against animal torture. They just provided proof. So bust them on that. Free Speech isn't really in the mix and it was a stupid defensive gambit that a cowardly judge wasn't able to call them out on.

DanG's comments were right on target - which 5 counts were dismissed, which 2 were upheld....? need to know that

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[regulator 0]

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>>What terrible things to do to puppies!!! kittens and birds?? meh

>They are all innocent.

Birds are? Do turkeys and chickens fall under the same sort of protection?

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At least chickens and turkeys get fed every day before quickly getting killed..and then someone and their family gets to eat. These tortured animals didnt get anything other than pain.

[billvon 3,132]

>At least chickens and turkeys get fed every day before quickly getting killed..

Methinks you shouldn't question that assumption too much if this story bothers you.

[DanG 1]

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Unfortunately right now they are looking at two years. And as we all know two years in state pen equals 3-6 months.

Do you have another source you're looking at? The article in the OP said it was a federal judge, so they wouldn't be serving time in a state pen. And AFAIK the feds don't due early parole.

- Dan G

[Andy9o8 3]

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I'm not remotely cool with that.

I'm not either. I'm just curious about the rest of the story. The linked article is pretty short on details. What charges were dropped? What charges weren't? Did the judge really say that animal torture is protected by the 1st Amendment? Seems unlikely, but stranger things have happened.

Yeah, I want those details, too. Tried to find them, but can't via Google so far, and don't have the time to really dig deeply. But I really can't develop a firm opinion of what the judge did until I have those details. Sucky whuffo reporting, so far.

[regulator 0]

Damnit. You're right. This was a federal judge. Last time I checked the feds were still 1-1 as compared to 3 or 4 to 1 for state pen.

days earned as compared to days served.

[jakee 1,610]

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These tortured animals didnt get anything other than pain.

So, that's different from the chicken you buy in a supermarket how?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Andy9o8 3]

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These tortured animals didnt get anything other than pain.

So, that's different from the chicken you buy in a supermarket how?

Ooh! I know!
It's not.

[billvon 3,132]

So question on this in general.

If you had video of someone doing this - cutting off chicken's beaks, stuffing them in tiny boxes, throwing chicks in a meat grinder - who should face jail time? The person throwing the chicks in the grinder or the person videoing them?