rehmwa 2 #26 April 1, 2013 QuoteOil companies are offering something that "works" and is still technically "affordable"... explain why your government still subsidises them despite their consistent annual record profits?.....then take away their crutches and see how they hold up. "Explain why?" because government subsidies are wasteful and unfairly prop up work that live on its own. then they are too entrenched to give it up in a smart fashion. Did you even try to understand Skypuppy's note? Your note indicates a binary stereotype (with a politically correct twist for the fun of it) look at the issue - oil vs other (with no option to actually try to understand the comment.) Instead of trying to advocate one type of subsidy and attacking another less PC, his comment was overall. Skypuppy notes that subsidies are a bad idea. Clearly this would apply to any type of subsidy (or penalty) on oil as well. So you are in complete agreement with skypuppy and just like to write in a manner that looks like argument. ?? Quotethat's how emerging tech works - expensive to start, each new iteration gets cheaper and more efficient. so what - it works that way in private industry too. So take away the crutches and let the private industry get through the development process. (Same as you propose for oil - everyone agrees) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 444 #27 April 2, 2013 QuoteQuote"Fisker Automotive, the U.S.-backed maker of luxury plug-in hybrid sports cars, has hired law firm Kirkland & Ellis to advise it on a possible bankruptcy filing" http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/28/autos-fisker-bankruptcy-idUSL2N0CK1ML20130328 Just think about how your local school district would have been able to use that half a billion dollars. And unlike A123 the Chinese will not even touch it. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/28/us-autos-fisker-furlough-idUSBRE92R01B20130328 Are you trying to make the case that every single company that the US Government backs, or assist, in any way, MUST ABSOLUTELY be a runaway success? The Right Wing Conservatards that are so happy about business failures are really patriotic, aren't they? The ignorant pinheads have exactly ZERO comprehension of venture capital funding and the outcome of the funding. The very BEST VCs in Silicon Valley have a failure rate of around 75% or thereabouts. For the ignorant RWCs, that means that 75 of the 100 companies that very experienced capital investors put their money into, fail. Fail as in, don't succeed. Is that clear enough for you America hating pinheads? No sane, well informed person would expect a higher success rate than VCs from government investments in private enterprise. The moron bastard shitheads that watch Faux Spews, listen to Lush Rimjob, and the psychotic Glenn Beck, are more than happy to gloat about business failures, as long as the failures happen to companies that received some kind of government assistance. Since when did it become a positive thing to be really HAPPY about a leading edge business venture failing? It used to be that severe ignorance was something shameful. Nowadays it is a sign that you are a Right Wing Conservatard. The irony of one calling someone "ignorant" while conflating venture capitalism with government subsidies is not lost on me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ShcShc11 0 #28 April 2, 2013 QuoteQuoteQuote...we must learn from that lesson. What was it that we were supposed to learn from this? In my opinion, basically that the gov't shouldn't be trying to pick winners and losers in new technology. If the researchers are left to figure out technologies with best return for their investment, they will. Gov't support of one technology over another (for instance, cf lightbulbs) kills competing ideas, and is not necessarily the best way forward. Then as soon as the subsidy ends, you're left with either something that doesn't work, or something you can't afford... Gov subsidies: Corn & oil Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #29 April 2, 2013 Quote Your note indicates a binary stereotype (with a politically correct twist for the fun of it) look at the issue - oil vs other (with no option to actually try to understand the comment.) Instead of trying to advocate one type of subsidy and attacking another less PC, his comment was overall. Skypuppy notes that subsidies are a bad idea. Clearly this would apply to any type of subsidy (or penalty) on oil as well. So you are in complete agreement with skypuppy and just like to write in a manner that looks like argument. ?? It's a bit binary to have to see subsidies as good or bad exclusively too. Reality - subsidies for 19th century technology with declining viability...bad. Subsidies for 21st century renewable technology...good. Because if it does come about, we're going to be in a bad way, and America's prominence will be severely dashed. (Are you guys red commies or what?) Quote Quotethat's how emerging tech works - expensive to start, each new iteration gets cheaper and more efficient. so what - it works that way in private industry too. So take away the crutches and let the private industry get through the development process. (Same as you propose for oil - everyone agrees) Might want to check to see how much private industry development comes about from federal investments like these. VC money doesn't flow to high risk endeavors very much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
93626392 0 #30 April 2, 2013 Quote The irony of one calling someone "ignorant" while conflating venture capitalism with government subsidies is not lost on me. You've completely misunderstood what he said - I'm hoping deliberately otherwise that would suggest you didn't understand what he said... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #31 April 2, 2013 Quote It's a bit binary to have to see subsidies as good or bad exclusively too. I'm told it's an intellectual coping mechanism. Sounds fancy to me though. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistercwood 287 #32 April 2, 2013 Sorry, I probably wasn't very clear in my previous response (it was late and I'd had a few beers... ). I guess what I was getting at was more to do with the original topic - everyone seems to get riled up anytime a green company gets taxpayer funds but doesn't do so well. The same people who get angry about this rarely if ever seem to get riled up about their taxpayer dollars going to industries that haven't needed that cash for decades. The poster I replied to very likely doesn't agree with this wastage either - but many don't seem to care. You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #33 April 2, 2013 Quoteeveryone seems to get riled up anytime a green company gets taxpayer funds but doesn't do so well. The same people who get angry about this rarely if ever seem to get riled up about their taxpayer dollars going to industries that haven't needed that cash for decades. Testify, brother. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #34 April 3, 2013 QuoteQuote about their taxpayer dollars going to industries that haven't needed that cash for decades. Testify, brother. some might argue that they never 'needed' it in the first place, they just 'got it'. some might also argue that money may have stifled the most efficient growth of that very industry or a better industry that never came to be other might argue the opposite apparently and that a government 'kick start' is the greatest thing since the wheel and nothing ever really happens without it I suppose the test is whether you think Tang is a tasty drink or not. Clearly, I'm conflicted as a result. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #35 April 3, 2013 Quote Quote Quote about their taxpayer dollars going to industries that haven't needed that cash for decades. Testify, brother. some might argue that they never 'needed' it in the first place, they just 'got it'. some might also argue that money may have stifled the most efficient growth of that very industry or a better industry that never came to be other might argue the opposite apparently and that a government 'kick start' is the greatest thing since the wheel and nothing ever really happens without it I suppose the test is whether you think Tang is a tasty drink or not. Clearly, I'm conflicted as a result. You and I are referring to different industries, Bill. I'm talking about the military industry, where government heaps trillions of largesse upon contractors like Grumman, Northrup, McDonnell-Douglas, etc. You, on the other hand, are referring to the space program, where gover...... Never mind. ===================================== OK, all kidding aside, I'm very much in favor of the civilian space program, because I do believe that the net-net of it advances human development. I know, some drink the kool-aid; I drank the Tang. I'm also no fool when it comes to genuine needs for national defense and security, and SOME need to project SOME power overseas to that end. I just think we can do it quite well with about, oh, 60% of the treasure and blood that we're actually spending (and diverting) for it. IOW, about 40% of the military (and even more of the human) expenditure between 1946 and today has been (and still is being) criminally misspent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #36 April 3, 2013 QuoteQuoteMonday morning quarterbacking. What would you have posted if the company had managed to be successful? "Goobermint wasted $$$ because the company turned out to be successful?" I would have gladly ate crow. There is nothing I would have liked more than to be wrong. We all would have been better off if the billions of dollars "invested" in green, would have paid off. But they did not, and we must learn from that lesson. And that's why, right after you posted this thread, you posted that Tesla is showing their first profit this year and paying down their government loan? Oh wait...that doesn't suit your obviously biased opinion of the industry, therefore you'll quietly ignore it. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
