Outsiders point of view

[rehmwa 2]

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In the Atlanta airport if you are arriving from Europe you'll find 2 or maybe 3 booths to go through for non-citizens (by far the majority of the passengers), and 5 or more for US citizens.

every single country I've ever visited had the exact same setup, especially more affluent countries - they have the expectation that their citizens will disproportionately travel out and then back in

Taiwan was most interesting - they had booths for citizens returning, others for almost everybody else, and "special" booths just for China-com citizens. And machine guns everywhere.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[wmw999 2,589]

I've been to a number of foreign countries. I've never experienced any treatment that I'd consider to be unnecessarily abusive or rude. Lazy, short, slow -- yeah, sure. But they've always been somewhat professional and reasonably polite.

Maybe since "everyone wants to get in" their INS agents think it's their job to discourage that. But I'm not sure that's good.

I'm sure that not every INS agent is a yahoo, but there seem to be enough of them for it to be a reputation.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[aphid 0]

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I've found it to be a little better driving across the border, but sometimes that can be quite painful too. My brother is in the Canadian Air Force, and was posted to NORAD headquarters in Colorado Springs. When he entered the US at Detroit, traveling with his family, the customs guy refused to believe that Canadian military personnel could be posted to a US location, so he concluded that my brother's transfer orders and immigration documents must be forgeries. My brother had to park in a holding lot, and he and the family were not allowed to move from the car for over five hours. When the kids (aged 3 and 5) had to use the bathroom, he was flatly told that if they left the car he would be arrested. So he had them pee on the ground, at which point he was made to get on his hands and knees and clean it up! Also during this time some nice "friendly" customs folks had him empty all their luggage out of the car, and every suitcase and box was opened and gone through, with much of the contents dumped on the ground. They also removed the hubcaps from the wheels, and took apart the car doors, looking for contraband. After customs received confirmation from the US military that the transfer orders and immigration documents were legitimate, and that my brother was indeed expected at NORAD headquarters, he was sent on his way without being offered any assistance to put the car back together or repack and load his luggage. Since he didn't have much in the way of tools with him, and the customs & immigration folks wouldn't let him use theirs, he had to stick the various pieces of the doors in the car and go find a garage, where he had to pay to get the car put back together. Welcome to America, indeed!

Thanks for the anecdote.

A skydiving friend of mine, a Canadian Forces SARtec, was headed to FL at the invitation of the 101st Airborne to attend an annual medical triage weekend seminar. All documents in order and traveling on a military passport. US Customs in pre-clearance refused to believe him or the documents from the 101st and detained him. When he pulled out his cell phone to contact his CO to advise he was missing his flight, Customs forcibly removed his cell phone, and placed him in wrist-restraints. Two hours later he was released to the custody of Canada Customs and the RCMP who promptly told the American agents to "get those f**king cuffs off our guy!"

I have $0.50 wagered that incidents of these types of "Homeland Security" won't ever make the final cut to the broadcast of the 'Border Patrol' reality television program.

John

[CygnusX-1 43]

Yup, the terrorist won. The only ones we have to blame is ourselves.

But after going through all that effort in getting into the USA, don't you feel much safer then being in your grossly unprotected country?

[OHCHUTE 0]

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I've found it to be a little better driving across the border, but sometimes that can be quite painful too. My brother is in the Canadian Air Force, and was posted to NORAD headquarters in Colorado Springs. When he entered the US at Detroit, traveling with his family, the customs guy refused to believe that Canadian military personnel could be posted to a US location, so he concluded that my brother's transfer orders and immigration documents must be forgeries. My brother had to park in a holding lot, and he and the family were not allowed to move from the car for over five hours. When the kids (aged 3 and 5) had to use the bathroom, he was flatly told that if they left the car he would be arrested. So he had them pee on the ground, at which point he was made to get on his hands and knees and clean it up! Also during this time some nice "friendly" customs folks had him empty all their luggage out of the car, and every suitcase and box was opened and gone through, with much of the contents dumped on the ground. They also removed the hubcaps from the wheels, and took apart the car doors, looking for contraband. After customs received confirmation from the US military that the transfer orders and immigration documents were legitimate, and that my brother was indeed expected at NORAD headquarters, he was sent on his way without being offered any assistance to put the car back together or repack and load his luggage. Since he didn't have much in the way of tools with him, and the customs & immigration folks wouldn't let him use theirs, he had to stick the various pieces of the doors in the car and go find a garage, where he had to pay to get the car put back together. Welcome to America, indeed!

Thanks for the anecdote.

A skydiving friend of mine, a Canadian Forces SARtec, was headed to FL at the invitation of the 101st Airborne to attend an annual medical triage weekend seminar. All documents in order and traveling on a military passport. US Customs in pre-clearance refused to believe him or the documents from the 101st and detained him. When he pulled out his cell phone to contact his CO to advise he was missing his flight, Customs forcibly removed his cell phone, and placed him in wrist-restraints. Two hours later he was released to the custody of Canada Customs and the RCMP who promptly told the American agents to "get those f**king cuffs off our guy!"

I have $0.50 wagered that incidents of these types of "Homeland Security" won't ever make the final cut to the broadcast of the 'Border Patrol' reality television program.

John

This particular experience is not the norm. I have no idea why the person was treated the way he was. He might file a law suit. None the less, due to this one experience should not keep you from traveling here. If you are on official business you might have the receiving agency stand by, if possible, so that security can call them. Just a suggestion.

[Andy9o8 2]

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> Maybe you shouldn't schedule your connecting flight so close if you need to go the I & C.

There ya go.

"Problems with long waits and hassles at our borders? It's the visitor's own damn fault."

>Certainly if your decision on whether to visit or not is based on having to
>wait more than 30 minutes I'll suggest you really didn't want to be here to begin with.

Last time I had a visitor from Norway it was 130 minutes.

Why?

I imagine he likes to have guests from Norway.

[ryoder 1,590]

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When he entered the US at Detroit, traveling with his family, the customs guy refused to believe that Canadian military personnel could be posted to a US location, so he concluded that my brother's transfer orders and immigration documents must be forgeries.

Oh, for chrissake!!!

When I worked at General Dynamics / Fort Worth, there were foreign military representatives there with permanent offices, overseeing the production of the F-16's for their respective countries. I personally met with the Israeli rep a few times regarding engineering changes. And this was back in the late '80's!!!

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[billvon 3,120]

>Why?

Planeload of people landing at SAN, one border agent.

[Remster 30]

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I personally met with the Israeli rep

So you freely admit you had repetitive contact with the foreign agent?

Remster

[ryoder 1,590]

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> Maybe you shouldn't schedule your connecting flight so close if you need to go the I & C.

There ya go.

"Problems with long waits and hassles at our borders? It's the visitor's own damn fault."

>Certainly if your decision on whether to visit or not is based on having to
>wait more than 30 minutes I'll suggest you really didn't want to be here to begin with.

Last time I had a visitor from Norway it was 130 minutes.

Why?

I imagine he likes to have guests from Norway.

Probably the guy bringing the fresh Rakfisk;
Oh, wait...

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[ryoder 1,590]

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I personally met with the Israeli rep

So you freely admit you had repetitive contact with the foreign agent?

Yessiree!
Right under the noses of the USAF!
(GD operated the plant, but it was on USAF property.)

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[aphid 0]

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This particular experience is not the norm. I have no idea why the person was treated the way he was. He might file a law suit.

Not all interactions are this extreme, or as severe as the one cited by GeorgiaDon above, so of course they are not "normal". I have collected numerous published news reports of similar border problems across the 49th parallel over the last 3 years, and you have a study showing the broader traveling foreign public are beginning to avoid your country based on their collective negative and often hostile experiences with some US Customs people.

But perhaps you're correct and this collective impression might be just from impatient and impertinent foreigners.

As far as filing lawsuits, thanks for the suggestion. Mine is now up to $70K in legal fees so far and the DOJ is still avoiding facing me in federal court thus far successfully arguing US Customs is immune to judicial review in my suit.

John

[DracoV 0]

Heck, I know a young lady who was just threatened with jail and passport confiscation by Canadian customs because she has a 10-year-old DUI conviction on her record. Apparently Canada considers such people to be a menace to society, forever.

[ryoder 1,590]

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As far as filing lawsuits, thanks for the suggestion. Mine is now up to $70K in legal fees so far and the DOJ is still avoiding facing me in federal court thus far successfully arguing US Customs is immune to judicial review in my suit.

Can you jog my memory on what that was about?
I recall you talking about it before, but forgot what happened.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[quack 0]

I am sure that plenty of people have their own stories about borders, U.S. or otherwise. But I will offer another example of how unpleasant it can be getting through the 49th parallel: My (70 year old) parents were travelling by car from Canada into Maine recently. They have been through many, many times and have with them just the required travel stuff - luggage, camera, documents, donuts. And my father is an ex-RCMP officer so he knows the drill when dealing with anyone in a capacity such as a border agent: be polite, answer the questions truthfully, etc.

My Mom usually has some food with her for the trip. The border agent asked if they had any contraband. "No." But he searched the backseat anyway and found...two oranges! He verbally blasted my mother and stated that since she did not declare the fruit, she could be fined, AND denied entry to the U.S. Yes, the import of foods needs to be declared for pest and disease issues...she did not realize food was considered 'contraband'.

Needless to say, she was quite taken aback but restrained herself from saying anything as she respects authority. Eventually the agent allowed them passage. My Mom is too nice sometimes. She didn't bother to mention to the agent that the oranges she was illegally carrying into the country were imported to Canada from Florida (the little stickers on them didn't give it away).

It reminded me of travellers who had their sandwiches confiscated because of BSE concerns, even though the luncheon meats were product of U.S.A.

The point is that most times people do not complain about it, and many do not have any problems, and just take it as a normal part of being scrutinized before entering a country. But it is getting ridiculous entering the U.S. when you think about the previous posts about people who had official documents and were detained/restrained. For two nations that claim to have the longest undefended border on the planet it sure doesn't seem that way.

That is my nickel (we don't have pennies anymore for offering 2 cents)

But you have to understand, mental illness is like cholesterol. There is the good kind and the bad. Without the good kind- less flavor to life. - Serge A. Storms

[OHCHUTE 0]

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This particular experience is not the norm. I have no idea why the person was treated the way he was. He might file a law suit.

Not all interactions are this extreme, or as severe as the one cited by GeorgiaDon above, so of course they are not "normal". I have collected numerous published news reports of similar border problems across the 49th parallel over the last 3 years, and you have a study showing the broader traveling foreign public are beginning to avoid your country based on their collective negative and often hostile experiences with some US Customs people.

But perhaps you're correct and this collective impression might be just from impatient and impertinent foreigners.

As far as filing lawsuits, thanks for the suggestion. Mine is now up to $70K in legal fees so far and the DOJ is still avoiding facing me in federal court thus far successfully arguing US Customs is immune to judicial review in my suit.

John

Forgot to mention: you can't fight city hall.

[grimmie 186]

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Heck, I know a young lady who was just threatened with jail and passport confiscation by Canadian customs because she has a 10-year-old DUI conviction on her record. Apparently Canada considers such people to be a menace to society, forever.

Heck, You should see how the US treats a Canadian with a drug arrest 30+ years ago. Apparently we think that person is a menace to society, forever.

[OHCHUTE 0]

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I am sure that plenty of people have their own stories about borders, U.S. or otherwise. But I will offer another example of how unpleasant it can be getting through the 49th parallel: My (70 year old) parents were travelling by car from Canada into Maine recently. They have been through many, many times and have with them just the required travel stuff - luggage, camera, documents, donuts. And my father is an ex-RCMP officer so he knows the drill when dealing with anyone in a capacity such as a border agent: be polite, answer the questions truthfully, etc.

My Mom usually has some food with her for the trip. The border agent asked if they had any contraband. "No." But he searched the backseat anyway and found...two oranges! He verbally blasted my mother and stated that since she did not declare the fruit, she could be fined, AND denied entry to the U.S. Yes, the import of foods needs to be declared for pest and disease issues...she did not realize food was considered 'contraband'.

Needless to say, she was quite taken aback but restrained herself from saying anything as she respects authority. Eventually the agent allowed them passage. My Mom is too nice sometimes. She didn't bother to mention to the agent that the oranges she was illegally carrying into the country were imported to Canada from Florida (the little stickers on them didn't give it away).

It reminded me of travellers who had their sandwiches confiscated because of BSE concerns, even though the luncheon meats were product of U.S.A.

The point is that most times people do not complain about it, and many do not have any problems, and just take it as a normal part of being scrutinized before entering a country. But it is getting ridiculous entering the U.S. when you think about the previous posts about people who had official documents and were detained/restrained. For two nations that claim to have the longest undefended border on the planet it sure doesn't seem that way.

That is my nickel (we don't have pennies anymore for offering 2 cents)

The security here in the US when crossing our borders is worst than it was behind the IRON CURTAIN. Check point charlie was a breeze compared to going through Newark today. No Joke.