Outsiders point of view

[aphid 0]

I have a vested interest in this topic, yes, but it is something we foreigners have been saying for quite a few years. But, what the hell, it's only money...

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The survey, conducted by Consensus Research Group, of overseas travelers who have visited or considered visiting the U.S. in the last five years found that:

Forty-three percent of travelers who have visited say they will recommend to others to avoid a trip to the U.S. because of the entry process;

Visitors to the U.S. report that they tell, on average, eight others about their travel experiences – good or bad – creating a multiplying effect to the potential impact of their experiences;

One in three travelers thought that the U.S. is "falling behind other countries" or was even the "worst" they have ever seen in their Customs process;

Forty-four percent of business travelers say that they will not visit in the next five years because of the entry process;

Souce: http://www.ustravel.org/news/press-releases/startling-survey-results-reveal-entry-process-deters-millions-overseas-travelers

From my personal perspective though, the answer is not in hiring an additional 1000 CBP agents, but getting the ones that are there do their jobs more efficiently and with less open hostility.

John

[airdvr 210]

I've never thought any Immigration and Customs process was any good, in any country I've visited. They all amount to 'show us your papers please'.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[aphid 0]

Your experiences may have differed, of course. I do hope though that this study won't be discounted so out-of-hand considering the millions the US is currently spending on marketing efforts abroad to encourage foreign visitors to see (and spend their money in) your country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jnIKy9Libs

Nice tune, by the way.

[OHCHUTE 0]

So you are telling us you don't like the food at JFK, Newark, Orlando or Philadelphia airports? It's an airport for god sakes. Until you move up in life and own a Gulfstream where you can go through General Aviation gate, you'll have to suffer like the rest of us at all the worlds airports. And if you base not coming to America due to the gate at the airport then buddy you don't deserve to cast your beady eyes on the Grand Canyon, the Tetons, and girls in jeans. Stay the hell home!

[yoink 321]

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So you are telling us you don't like the food at JFK, Newark, Orlando or Philadelphia airports? It's an airport for god sakes. Until you move up in life and own a Gulfstream where you can go through General Aviation gate, you'll have to suffer like the rest of us at all the worlds airports. And if you base not coming to America due to the gate at the airport then buddy you don't deserve to cast your beady eyes on the Grand Canyon, the Tetons, and girls in jeans. Stay the hell home!

QUICK! THEY'RE COMING TO TAKE YOUR JERBS!

[aphid 0]

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So you are telling us you don't like the food at JFK, Newark, Orlando or Philadelphia airports? It's an airport for god sakes. Until you move up in life and own a Gulfstream where you can go through General Aviation gate, you'll have to suffer like the rest of us at all the worlds airports.

What on earth this press release had to do with airports or their food service baffles me.

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And if you base not coming to America due to the gate at the airport then buddy you don't deserve to cast your beady eyes on the Grand Canyon, the Tetons, and girls in jeans. Stay the hell home!

Thanks for the pleasant response. Sadly, that's pretty much the same hostile attitude we encounter at US Customs on far too many occasions.

John

[mistercwood 287]

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So you are telling us you don't like the food at JFK, Newark, Orlando or Philadelphia airports? It's an airport for god sakes. Until you move up in life and own a Gulfstream where you can go through General Aviation gate, you'll have to suffer like the rest of us at all the worlds airports. And if you base not coming to America due to the gate at the airport then buddy you don't deserve to cast your beady eyes on the Grand Canyon, the Tetons, and girls in jeans. Stay the hell home!

QUICK! THEY'RE COMING TO TAKE YOUR JERBS!

I never get tired of that one....

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[OHCHUTE 0]

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So you are telling us you don't like the food at JFK, Newark, Orlando or Philadelphia airports? It's an airport for god sakes. Until you move up in life and own a Gulfstream where you can go through General Aviation gate, you'll have to suffer like the rest of us at all the worlds airports.

What on earth this press release had to do with airports or their food service baffles me.

Quote

And if you base not coming to America due to the gate at the airport then buddy you don't deserve to cast your beady eyes on the Grand Canyon, the Tetons, and girls in jeans. Stay the hell home!

Thanks for the pleasant response. Sadly, that's pretty much the same hostile attitude we encounter at US Customs on far too many occasions.

John

What you are saying is something like this: I'm not visiting London because the cab drivers are scam artists. Like it's cab drivers that will keep me from going to London" I think not.

Custom official typically ask for papers. What is it you don't like about someone asking you for your passport? And when American's come back into the US do you think we get any separate treatment that is better? As we get the same treatment. And the treatment is pretty much the same no matter what country you visit. Now if you simply find it offensive that someone needs ask you to look at your papers, then you probably shouldn't travel to any country. Like I already said on here I've had machine guns put in my face at borders. Now if you can't stand the heat. Stay home. And if you can tolerate the inconvenience of going through customs you might find some things a country has to offer.


Once you're at the South Rim, you'll be forgetting anything that happened at the airport, believe me.

[grimmie 186]

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So you are telling us you don't like the food at JFK, Newark, Orlando or Philadelphia airports? It's an airport for god sakes. Until you move up in life and own a Gulfstream where you can go through General Aviation gate, you'll have to suffer like the rest of us at all the worlds airports.

What on earth this press release had to do with airports or their food service baffles me.

Quote

And if you base not coming to America due to the gate at the airport then buddy you don't deserve to cast your beady eyes on the Grand Canyon, the Tetons, and girls in jeans. Stay the hell home!

Thanks for the pleasant response. Sadly, that's pretty much the same hostile attitude we encounter at US Customs on far too many occasions.

John

What you are saying is something like this: I'm not visiting London because the cab drivers are scam artists. Like it's cab drivers that will keep me from going to London" I think not.

Custom official typically ask for papers. What is it you don't like about someone asking you for your passport? And when American's come back into the US do you think we get any separate treatment that is better? As we get the same treatment. And the treatment is pretty much the same no matter what country you visit. Now if you simply find it offensive that someone needs ask you to look at your papers, then you probably shouldn't travel to any country. Like I already said on here I've had machine guns put in my face at borders. Now if you can't stand the heat. Stay home. And if you can tolerate the inconvenience of going through customs you might find some things a country has to offer.


Once you're at the South Rim, you'll be forgetting anything that happened at the airport, believe me.

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit. But try and comprehend these stats.
http://www.ustravel.org/marketing/national-travel-and-tourism-week/talking-points-and-facts

Tourism is a life blood of our economy. As more and more foreign travelers get treated poorly after waiting in very long lines, that income will begin to dwindle.

And before you insult someone you never met, maybe get to know them. John has his own private aircraft that he could take to a fancy FBO, he lives in a pretty nice place with great views and he's been to lots of nations that have guys with machine guns at their borders and airports.

[RMK 3]

John is correct. If you enter the US as an American Citizen how do know what it’s like to enter as a foreigner – in short it’s quite unpleasant. The television commercial with the sappy song “Land of Dreams” is made fun of here in Europe. There’s a large and growing number of people who just don’t care to visit the US anymore due to unpleasant treatment.

The Grand Canyon is nice, but I would hold off on the magnanimous talk, there are a lot of great places to visit on the planet.

If you want some international visitor stats here’s one; what’s the most visited country? It’s France; it actually gets over twice the numbers as compared to the US.

"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

[Andy9o8 2]

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what’s the most visited country? It’s France;

Yeah, and they hate everybody! Go figure.

[aphid 0]

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John is correct. If you enter the US as an American Citizen how do know what it’s like to enter as a foreigner – in short it’s quite unpleasant. The television commercial with the sappy song “Land of Dreams” is made fun of here in Europe. There’s a large and growing number of people who just don’t care to visit the US anymore due to unpleasant treatment.

The Grand Canyon is nice, but I would hold off on the magnanimous talk, there are a lot of great places to visit on the planet.

If you want some international visitor stats here’s one; what’s the most visited country? It’s France; it actually gets over twice the numbers as compared to the US.

On a skydiving note: an event a group of us Canadians have organized for 18 straight years at a popular US dropzone, which by conservative estimates dropped over $1.9M directly into the small local community and the drop zone coffers, is now on-track to move lock/stock/barrel to Empuriabrava, Spain beginning January 2014.

[airdvr 210]

I don't know shit about surveys and stats. I was surprised to see such grand conclusions based on 1200 surveys.

Is it tough to enter the US? I guess so. People forget 13 years ago we had some folks we let enter the country do some serious damage. I'm sure that has slowed the process. But it seems the big complaint is one of time, that being how much of it is spent queing. Maybe you shouldn't schedule your connecting flight so close if you need to go the I & C. Certainly if your decision on whether to visit or not is based on having to wait more than 30 minutes I'll suggest you really didn't want to be here to begin with.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[OHCHUTE 0]

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So you are telling us you don't like the food at JFK, Newark, Orlando or Philadelphia airports? It's an airport for god sakes. Until you move up in life and own a Gulfstream where you can go through General Aviation gate, you'll have to suffer like the rest of us at all the worlds airports.

What on earth this press release had to do with airports or their food service baffles me.

Quote

And if you base not coming to America due to the gate at the airport then buddy you don't deserve to cast your beady eyes on the Grand Canyon, the Tetons, and girls in jeans. Stay the hell home!

Thanks for the pleasant response. Sadly, that's pretty much the same hostile attitude we encounter at US Customs on far too many occasions.

John

What you are saying is something like this: I'm not visiting London because the cab drivers are scam artists. Like it's cab drivers that will keep me from going to London" I think not.

Custom official typically ask for papers. What is it you don't like about someone asking you for your passport? And when American's come back into the US do you think we get any separate treatment that is better? As we get the same treatment. And the treatment is pretty much the same no matter what country you visit. Now if you simply find it offensive that someone needs ask you to look at your papers, then you probably shouldn't travel to any country. Like I already said on here I've had machine guns put in my face at borders. Now if you can't stand the heat. Stay home. And if you can tolerate the inconvenience of going through customs you might find some things a country has to offer.


Once you're at the South Rim, you'll be forgetting anything that happened at the airport, believe me.

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit. But try and comprehend these stats.
http://www.ustravel.org/marketing/national-travel-and-tourism-week/talking-points-and-facts

Tourism is a life blood of our economy. As more and more foreign travelers get treated poorly after waiting in very long lines, that income will begin to dwindle.

And before you insult someone you never met, maybe get to know them. John has his own private aircraft that he could take to a fancy FBO, he lives in a pretty nice place with great views and he's been to lots of nations that have guys with machine guns at their borders and airports.

I was joining him by claiming no matter where in the hell you go, airports suck. It's no different here than anywhere else and I've been a lot of places. But the idea he won't go to a place due to some asshole at the airport is well, pretty weak argument not to visit a country. As far as the US has the largest travel industry is mainly due to US people leaving the US on vacations taking their money to other countries. If you read the data. So, WE TOO MUST SUFFER.
If you don't like to suffer then STAY THE HELL IN FRANCE WHEN YOU GO THERE FROM HERE AND DON'T COME HOME. Now that's a pretty good excuse not to come back to America!

Jeesh, heard enough about problems at the airport.

MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, the people at customs act that way to shake down a traveler. To see how they react to rudeness. Sure the guy there who is not offended has baloons of heroin in his stomach! They might be acting that way for a reason, via the training they receive. Who knows?

[airdvr 210]

How about you tell us what is so bad.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 3,120]

> Maybe you shouldn't schedule your connecting flight so close if you need to go the I & C.

There ya go.

"Problems with long waits and hassles at our borders? It's the visitor's own damn fault."

>Certainly if your decision on whether to visit or not is based on having to
>wait more than 30 minutes I'll suggest you really didn't want to be here to begin with.

Last time I had a visitor from Norway it was 130 minutes.

[ryoder 1,590]

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what’s the most visited country? It’s France;

Yeah, and they hate everybody! Go figure.

France: The Soup Nazi of the tourism industry.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Andy9o8 2]

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what’s the most visited country? It’s France;

Yeah, and they hate everybody! Go figure.

France: The Soup Nazi of the tourism industry.

No snails for you.

[wmw999 2,589]

The people in INS (or whatever they're called now -- it's not actually INS) are not particularly polite or helpful to people they don't think are US citizens. I contacted them on behalf of someone the other day, and had a fairly unpleasant experience with someone who insisted that the form I needed wasn't one of theirs (well, the local office said it was, and the other-state copy I was looking at had INS written at the top). You have to have access to the internet and a printer to make an appointment (that's really not necessarily universal).

Frankly, if we treat people like crap, we shouldn't be surprised if they then treat us like crap, too. As far as our having let in people who plotted against us, well, that's happened to plenty of other countries as well -- we just have a very large portion of the world's money and power concentrated in a few places, and we don't mind using either to maintain our money and power -- it's not that surprising it paints a target on our back for those assholes.

How many people here like Leona ("only the little people pay taxes") Helmsley? Doesn't make it OK to take her out, but how many would have kind of been OK with it if one of her help had ripped her off?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[aphid 0]

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I don't know shit about surveys and stats. I was surprised to see such grand conclusions based on 1200 surveys.

Is it tough to enter the US? I guess so. People forget 13 years ago we had some folks we let enter the country do some serious damage. I'm sure that has slowed the process. But it seems the big complaint is one of time, that being how much of it is spent queing. Maybe you shouldn't schedule your connecting flight so close if you need to go the I & C. Certainly if your decision on whether to visit or not is based on having to wait more than 30 minutes I'll suggest you really didn't want to be here to begin with.

With all due respect, it's not about inconvenience. It's not about delay. In the words of a foreigner above: "... how do know what it’s like to enter as a foreigner – in short it’s quite unpleasant."

That was a polite way of describing the level of hostility we too often encounter when we deal with US Customs agents. Not every agent of course, but it is more prevalent now than ever before.

I'm sorry this topic, presented solely to draw attention to a problem, seems to have generated defensiveness.

John

[airdvr 210]

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> Maybe you shouldn't schedule your connecting flight so close if you need to go the I & C.

There ya go.

"Problems with long waits and hassles at our borders? It's the visitor's own damn fault."

>Certainly if your decision on whether to visit or not is based on having to
>wait more than 30 minutes I'll suggest you really didn't want to be here to begin with.

Last time I had a visitor from Norway it was 130 minutes.

Why?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[airdvr 210]

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/travel_news/

Lots of good info here. The process seems pretty straightforward. I'm willing to bet much of the delay problems stem from missing, wrong, or improperly filled out documents.

I have no doubt there is room for improvement.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[grimmie 186]

People are treated like criminals at the checkpoints.
CBP officers could give a shit if you miss a flight. For some of them it's a power trip, others do a good job.
Fly into Miami, Houston or Dallas and try to clear customs. it's a pain in the ass.

There is a murderer from Texas named Ricky Grimm on the loose. Not me, he's 6'3", 250 lbs. I'm 5'10". 190 lbs. They have his photo. The first couple of times I was detained for an hour upon entering the US from Belize. OK, no problem, I'll fill out your forms for future entry and it shouldn't be a problem. Nope, almost missed a connecting flight the next time. I explained to them I had filled out the forms and I'm not their guy. They acted like I was a criminal and were rude to my family. After some letter writing, now they just match my photo to his and I make it through. It only took five years.

And TSA is an entire other story...

[rhaig 0]

I've been through immigration as a business traveler (with and without a VISA) in Spain, Taiwan, China, Brazil, and Canada. the first 4 were "show me your papers, why are you here, where are you staying". Canada, however didn't let me get the paperwork out of the way up front using a service, I had to amass evidence of reasoning for my visit, and stand in a line at immigration at the airport for 2 hours while 4 agents serviced the line, 2 of the agents went to lunch during this time.

China was by far the easiest entry process.

--
Rob

[GeorgiaDon 380]

I've experienced going through US customs and immigration from the perspective of both the foreigner and, more recently as a US citizen, and they are night and day experiences. In the Atlanta airport if you are arriving from Europe you'll find 2 or maybe 3 booths to go through for non-citizens (by far the majority of the passengers), and 5 or more for US citizens. The result is you get to stand in line for a really long time as a foreign tourist, and while waiting you get to watch US citizens walk right up to an booth with no lineup, or a really short one. Minor issue, perhaps, but quite obnoxious after an hour or two in line. If you want you can factor in that there are no bathrooms until you've cleared customs, which can make that couple of hours in line most unpleasant. When you get to the front of the line, as a non-citizen you will be "greeted" by someone who assumes you are a terrorist, so you had better be prepared to offer proof of hotel reservations, phone numbers where you can be contacted, etc for every day of your stay. As a US citizen, I've found it's not unusual to be told "welcome home".

I've found it to be a little better driving across the border, but sometimes that can be quite painful too. My brother is in the Canadian Air Force, and was posted to NORAD headquarters in Colorado Springs. When he entered the US at Detroit, traveling with his family, the customs guy refused to believe that Canadian military personnel could be posted to a US location, so he concluded that my brother's transfer orders and immigration documents must be forgeries. My brother had to park in a holding lot, and he and the family were not allowed to move from the car for over five hours. When the kids (aged 3 and 5) had to use the bathroom, he was flatly told that if they left the car he would be arrested. So he had them pee on the ground, at which point he was made to get on his hands and knees and clean it up! Also during this time some nice "friendly" customs folks had him empty all their luggage out of the car, and every suitcase and box was opened and gone through, with much of the contents dumped on the ground. They also removed the hubcaps from the wheels, and took apart the car doors, looking for contraband. After customs received confirmation from the US military that the transfer orders and immigration documents were legitimate, and that my brother was indeed expected at NORAD headquarters, he was sent on his way without being offered any assistance to put the car back together or repack and load his luggage. Since he didn't have much in the way of tools with him, and the customs & immigration folks wouldn't let him use theirs, he had to stick the various pieces of the doors in the car and go find a garage, where he had to pay to get the car put back together. Welcome to America, indeed!

Maybe I'll post something about the immigration and naturalization process in the "immigration reform" thread. That experience was also quite unnecessarily painful, in my experience.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)