Should background checks include identifying the mentally ill

[quade 4]

Who said anything otherwise? Who? Give me a name of anybody suggesting otherwise?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 23]

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Who said anything otherwise?

Who?

kallend for one

But if this is your position

We agree on something

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rehmwa 2]

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So, you believe that no matter how mentally ill a person is, they should be allowed access to guns?

Really?

So you really believe that you only want DNC fundraisers to own guns and be able to search anyone's home at any time of their choosing?

Really? (You were a bit random and strawman with the reply to a post about semantics arguments being a waste of time. Hope this helps.)


to your question - Let's say you were slightly depressed. You are dealing fine with it, or taking appropriate meds, whatever. You've never committed a crime. Heck, you won't even pet a cat in the wrong direction.

Are you ok with having any of your basic rights removed? You ok with the Sheriff inspecting your house whenever he feels like it, or whenever Kallend sends an anonymous note to the city councilman noted that "Quade is crazy - he's on meds"?

you ok with that?

1 - What KIND of crazy?
2 - How is it determined?
3 - If you never ACTED violently, despite your diagnosis, how do you justify removal of the right?????

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[champu 1]

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So, you believe that no matter how mentally ill a person is, they should be allowed access to guns?

Really?

You owe the resistence you're seeing here not to people's desires to see armed mental ill people but to statements of yours like this:

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Normal people do not go on shooting sprees. They just don't. Something has to be screwed up in their heads for them to believe that is the solution to whatever problem they might have.

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These aren't simply bad errors in judgement; these are willful acts of brains that aren't working correctly. A mental illness.

This isn't I Robot and people are not programmed with "prime directives of normality" where you get to declare solely based on some output that the brain isn't functioning correctly. If I click in the address bar of this browser window and pound on my keyboard, I won't get what I want, but that doesn't mean the software is broken.

Your exasperation in trying to convince everyone that we need to think of mass murderes as necessarily insane is pointless because "whether the person has committed a mass murder" is a pretty poor test for determining if a person should be allowed access to firearms, and it is not the stepping stone to more useful prophelactic determinations that you think it is.

[rehmwa 2]

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"whether the person has committed a mass murder" is a pretty poor test for determining if a person should be allowed access to firearms,

actually, it's the perfect test since his real life actions just showed he is a direct threat to the rest of us (of course, I'd like incarceration (or incineration) at this point rather than just take away his pistol) - the issue is by then it's too late to avoid the first instance, as we couldn't predict his future actions

we can only respond directly against a person based on his present and past actions.........

we can only address the possibility of it prior to then by being allowed to be prepared to respond if it happens

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[quade 4]

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. . . and people are not programmed with "prime directives of normality" where you get to declare solely based on some output that the brain isn't functioning correctly.

Yes. In fact, that's precisely how it works.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 23]

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. . . and people are not programmed with "prime directives of normality" where you get to declare solely based on some output that the brain isn't functioning correctly.

Yes. In fact, that's precisely how it works.

Really?

And who or what sets the baseline?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rehmwa 2]

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Really?

And who or what sets the baseline?

Isaac Asimov

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rushmc 23]

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Really?

And who or what sets the baseline?

Isaac Asimov

As good as it can get I guess

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[champu 1]

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"whether the person has committed a mass murder" is a pretty poor test for determining if a person is mentally ill and thus should not be allowed access to firearms in an effort to prevent mass murder,

actually, it's the perfect test since his real life actions just showed he is a direct threat to the rest of us (of course, I'd like incarceration (or incineration) at this point rather than just take away his pistol) - the issue is by then it's too late to avoid the first instance, as we couldn't predict his future actions

we can only respond directly against a person based on his present and past actions.........

we can only address the possibility of it prior to then by being allowed to be prepared to respond if it happens

See my statement as amended. My intended point was what you stated.

[rehmwa 2]

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As good as it can get I guess

well, since we are working from a premise of normality and not embracing diversity of any kind, we have to set a standard.....

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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See my statement as amended. My intended point was what you stated.

just because I agree with your amended statement is no reason for me to not to continue to ignore it and tediously restate my soapbox in my normal and unproductive style




but that's insane according to the Is-As (trademark reserved) standard. I should report soon for re-programming.


Edit: "Is-As" pronounced 'eyes az'

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rushmc 23]

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As good as it can get I guess

well, since we are working from a premise of normality and not embracing diversity of any kind, we have to set a standard.....

Which (as you properly address) was my question/point

I do NOT understant the thought processes (or lack therof) that come to a conclusion that eveything can be perfectly fixed.
And when you bring this up you get the "well you must think it is stupid to even try" bull shit response.

We keep making cars safer. People still die in them

We keep making skydiving safer. Yet people still die doing it

What is not seen is the fact that to get to a standard closer to perfect requires giving up freedoms as well as choices

For some that see that as ok

Not me

I want to control as much of my own life as I can.

To you more gov control types "LEAVE ME THE HELL ALONE."

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[champu 1]

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. . . and people are not programmed with "prime directives of normality" where you get to declare solely based on some output that the brain isn't functioning correctly.

Yes. In fact, that's precisely how it works.

I hope you see that claim as a terrifying precedent and I hope you didn't stop reading my post there (it was just starting to get good... trust me.)

[rushmc 23]

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. . . and people are not programmed with "prime directives of normality" where you get to declare solely based on some output that the brain isn't functioning correctly.

Yes. In fact, that's precisely how it works.

I hope you see that claim as a terrifying precedent and I hope you didn't stop reading my post there (it was just starting to get good... trust me.)

What is even more terrifying is, he thinks he's right!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,146]

As opposed to you, who knows that you are not.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

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So, you believe that no matter how mentally ill a person is, they should be allowed access to guns?

Really?

Yes. Because you are AGAIN making the flippant connection that "mentally ill = violent." Or "mentally ill = dangerous." They are no synonymous. And no matter HOW anorexic a person is, it does not implicate any idea or suggestion of proclivity to violence. No matter HOW ADHD a person is, it has nothing to do with whether that individual will kill one or more with a gun.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[GeorgiaDon 379]

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. . . and people are not programmed with "prime directives of normality" where you get to declare solely based on some output that the brain isn't functioning correctly.

Yes. In fact, that's precisely how it works.

Programmed at what level? Much of our aversion to hurting other people is socially conditioned, not genetically programmed. People who are indoctrinated as young children into groups such as the Lord's Resistance Army, for one example, feel no sense of guilt or revulsion as they use their machetes to hack off the hands, or heads, of those their leaders designate as enemies. Their behavior would be outrageous in our society, but it is perceived as quite normal within the LRA. How can it be that behaviors that are indicative of mental illness in one context are normal in a different context? It's not like you can rid yourself of cancer by moving to a different place, anywhere on the planet. Disease shouldn't be dependent on context.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[rushmc 23]

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As opposed to you, who knows that you are not.

Not relevant

I do however know what rights are as well as what privacy is

Cause you see, I am not advocating for someone to decide if anyone keeps (or loses) their rights or privacy

Unlike you

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[lawrocket 3]

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It's not like you can rid yourself of cancer by moving to a different place, anywhere on the planet. Disease shouldn't be dependent on context.

You’ve hit the nail on the head. Mental illness is not a behavioral issue. It’s not something that is an indication of one’s soul.

You described sociopaths – those that can inflict harm on others without remorse. Those exist here, too. Nothing really can be done except to sequester them SUBSEQUENT to some crime (not arrested and imprisoned prior to a crime).

The mentally ill have a medical condition that can be treated. Know a person who is diabetic? The person ends up acting confused and disoriented such that the person appears to be drunk. It’s not a personality thing but a chemical matter for which steps can be taken to treat it. So, too, can mental illness.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

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Cause you see, I am not advocating for someone to decide if anyone keeps (or loses) their rights or privacy

That's the interesting thing. Usually people who think that someone should have some authority over everyone supports it only when their person is in power.

imagine Dick Cheney having that authority.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rushmc 23]

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Cause you see, I am not advocating for someone to decide if anyone keeps (or loses) their rights or privacy

That's the interesting thing. Usually people who think that someone should have some authority over everyone supports it only when their person is in power.

imagine Dick Cheney having that authority.

I have not bought into the media picture of Cheney and Bush as you have but, that is a different thread for now. (btw,, the media did the same to Romney and have now started on Rubio)


I give the power you post about, to the Constitution (which I know is subject to the courts)

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[lawrocket 3]

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I have not bought into the media picture of Cheney and Bush as you have

Which is not the point. anybody who wants to give Obama more power should stop and think about: "What if Bush and Cheney had this power?"

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rushmc 23]

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I have not bought into the media picture of Cheney and Bush as you have

Which is not the point. anybody who wants to give Obama more power should stop and think about: "What if Bush and Cheney had this power?"

In that context, I agree

I don't want ANY of them having that power

Sorry I misunderstood your point

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[quade 4]

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Because you are AGAIN making the flippant connection that "mentally ill = violent." Or "mentally ill = dangerous."

Negative. Please do a thorough search and quote where I've ever said anything even remotely like that.

No.

There is a multi-dimension range of mental illness and I've never said all were violent. I've never even suggested it. However, there is, without a doubt in my mind a slice of mental illness that can be diagnosed as having violent tendencies. There is another slice where they simply do not know the difference between reality and fantasy. There is another slice who get sexually aroused by the sight of small children. There is a collection of slices which includes these and others that are not fit to own a weapon of any sort because of the danger they pose to society.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver