GeorgiaDon 379 #51 February 19, 2013 QuoteShine reportedly has a history of mental illness. It is not clear when he will be charged for the shootings. Cops found a gun at the scene on Friday evening when the shooting took place. Shine has a permit to carry, but it is unclear when he got it. See anything wrong with this picture, Counselor? Apart from the obvious wrong, which is that the shooting occurred at all, I'd want to know more about the "history of mental illness" before jumping to any judgements. According to the revised DSM, you can be diagnosed with depression (a mental illness) if you continue to show symptoms of sadness, loss of appetite, and such for more than two weeks after the death of a spouse or child. Such a broad brush renders "mental illness" virtually meaningless. Is someone with obsessive-compulsive disorder a threat? Delusory parasitosis? On the other hand, someone who has severe paranoia might be dangerous, as is someone who is actually unable to control their anger, as can happen due to frontal lobe damage. So, while I agree that we need to keep guns away from people who have a mental illness that impairs their ability to distinguish non-threatening from threatening situations, to control their actions, or to appreciate the consequences of their actions, I think that an anecdotal report of "mental illness" in a newspaper article is too vague to draw any sweeping conclusions. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #52 February 19, 2013 QuoteQuoteQuote Maybe the right of thousands of victims not to be shot dead has something to do with it. www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&safe=off&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=shooter++history+of+mental+illness&oq=shooter++history+of+mental+illness&gs_l=hp.12..0i5i30l2j0i8i5l2.0.0.1.106.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0.les%3B..0.0...1c..3.psy-ab.1NKaYlkI2mQ&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42553238,d.b2I&fp=d5bbde17dd6cca0a&ion=1&biw=1095&bih=530 what about the right of millions of gun owners to enjoy access to their perfectly legal ar-15's? So your enjoyment is more important that the lives of the 22 kids in Newtown. Nice priorities you have. perhaps if we knew that new laws would prevent such things, the millions of law-abiding gun owners might consider it. But since even the legislators don't believe their new law will prevent such a happening, and are merely doing 'something' to look like they're doing 'something', the whole legislation is meaningless as a step forward -- indeed, considering it infringes the rights of the law-abiding millions, it is a step backward. Give us something that 'will' make a difference in preventing such tragedies, and that we can see the benefit of, and we will probably approve them.If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #53 February 19, 2013 QuoteGive us something that 'will' make a difference in preventing such tragedies, and that we can see the benefit of, and we will probably approve them. Problem is that pesky Constitution. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 5 #54 February 19, 2013 QuoteShine reportedly has a history of mental illness. It is not clear when he will be charged for the shootings. Cops found a gun at the scene on Friday evening when the shooting took place. Shine has a permit to carry, but it is unclear when he got it. See anything wrong with this picture, Counselor? Your arguments concerning "mental illness", continue to be one massive repetitive circle of stupidity. To the point where its not even worth discussing with you. Both you and Quade constantly attempt to use examples that do not help any case you are trying to make... and I have noted that several times. QuoteIs someone with obsessive-compulsive disorder a threat? Please do answer this question. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toolbox 0 #55 February 19, 2013 >So your enjoyment is more important than the lives of 22 kids in Newtown. 22 kids is a small number when compared to the 5 children killed per day on average in the us from child abuse. Estimates are that even more children die of neglect,but it is believed that 80% of neglect cases are misdiagnosed and thus unreported so there is no way to know for sure. It is known that the US has the highest rate of child abuse and neglect in the industrialized world. With these numbers maybe we should outlaw parents in the US since there are a few bad ones? This is what you want to do with gun ownership to protect the children,and since the leading cause of death and injury to children is from their parents,with your logic we should take away the rights of citizens to be parents as well. Should we have background checks and mental evaluations performed before a citizen can have children? Make having kids a earned privilage like driving? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,145 #56 February 19, 2013 QuoteQuoteShine reportedly has a history of mental illness. It is not clear when he will be charged for the shootings. Cops found a gun at the scene on Friday evening when the shooting took place. Shine has a permit to carry, but it is unclear when he got it. See anything wrong with this picture, Counselor? Your arguments concerning "mental illness", continue to be one massive repetitive circle of stupidity. . NO, you are the one in denial that there is an issue with the mentally ill having easy access to guns. Denying a very real problem is an indication of stupidity. www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=shooter+had+history+of+mental+illness&oq=shooter+had+history+of+mental+illness&gs_l=hp.3...293359.297425.2.298294.13.13.0.0.0.2.644.1781.10j1j4-1j1.13.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.3.psy-ab.m5K1BXKR2b0&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42553238,d.b2U&fp=12948d4393918b3c&ion=1&biw=1144&bih=913... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,145 #57 February 19, 2013 Quote>So your enjoyment is more important than the lives of 22 kids in Newtown. 22 kids is a small number Go tell it to the parents of those kids.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #58 February 19, 2013 Quote NO, you are the one in denial that there is an issue with the mentally ill having easy access to guns. Denying a very real problem is an indication of stupidity Very few are in denial of this. But even the President acknowledged in his executive orders speech that the mentally ill are more likely to be the VICTIMS of crime than they are to be the perpetrators. You are in denial that you are being reactionary – harkening to a time when anybody who could be viewed as trouble was either lobotomized or just held in perpetual custody. You are in denial that the Constitution provides constraints upon what can be done. You are in denial that the right to privacy has been found to exist under the Constitution (see Roe v. Wade) and that any proposal that you seek with regard to even IDENTIFYING the mentally ill requires the overturning of Roe v. Wade and its progeny, as well as HIPAA and other protections to privacy. You are in denial about the nature of “mental illness,” including its diagnosis, treatments, and prognosis. You are in denial about the predictive power of a person’s mental health. You are in denial that sane people kill enormously more people than the “nutters,” but “nutters” make such an easy target. You are in denial about the likely effect of a person losing rights as a result of a diagnosis of mental illness – that people will not seek diagnosis or treatment, which is the antithesis of a healthy society. You are in denial of the law of unintended consequences. You are in denial of the rules of law. You are in denial that mental illness is not a matter of mood or personality, that it is not a matter of the person’s soul but rather of the person’s body. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 5 #59 February 19, 2013 I'm not going to argument your statements that are logically flawed. And if you put on your Tarantino hat, there are so many ways to kill people in massive quantities without firearms. Yet its even easier to get illegal firearms. You are in denial of the evil that exists in this world, and the only way to combat it. Working in an ER for over 4 years... I've seen a lot of that evil first hand. http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/blood_sport_9Hz0Ufq1TZeJjNAVTzZVyH This, is not mental illness... its evil. Since you won't answer "my" previous question: Have you read On Combat and On Killing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 5 #60 February 19, 2013 Quote www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=shooter+had+history+of+mental+illness&oq=shooter+had+history+of+mental+illness&gs_l=hp.3...293359.297425.2.298294.13.13.0.0.0.2.644.1781.10j1j4-1j1.13.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.3.psy-ab.m5K1BXKR2b0&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42553238,d.b2U&fp=12948d4393918b3c&ion=1&biw=1144&bih=913 As the author of On Combat and On Killing says, they are not shooters. Stop calling them that... that is moronic. And you posting a google link like this is insulting; to yourself and others. For your critical thinking and debate skills: I give you an F professor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toolbox 0 #61 February 19, 2013 Once again 22 kids is a small number compared to the 1,825 who die at the hands of their own parents each year. And then there is the much,much larger number of children who suffer and die of neglect. I feel for all the children and the parents of those who are harmed by evil mass murderers,but how about the kids who are victimized by their own parents? Are the kids who are killed by neglect and abuse less worthy of protection than the others? There have been laws against child abuse and child neglect for decades,and yet it still happens more here in the US than any other industrialized nation. What makes you think more laws against gun owners will save kids anymore than the laws we already have? Is it not against the law to murder children with guns already? Is it not against the law to buy,sell,or use drugs? Last I heard,there are more drugs being sold and bought and used than ever. What makes you think banning guns will prevent criminals from having guns? It would be far easier to stop child abuse and neglect than to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. Yet our laws can't even save children from there own parents,let alone all the sick fucked up pedophiles and killers out there. The only way to protect schools from killers is to have the threat of lethal force available to be used against those who would do violence against others. We have armed gaurds in airports and armed air marshals on planes,and it seems to work well. As far as background checks go,mental illness should be reported and this should be the only change made toward gun legislation. I'm not saying that all mental illness makes one a danger to ohers or even themselves,but many are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,145 #62 February 19, 2013 QuoteOnce again 22 kids is a small number Tell it to the parents and see how they react to your callous analysis.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,145 #63 February 19, 2013 QuoteI'm not going to argument your statements that are logically flawed. Translation - you don't have a valid answer.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,145 #64 February 19, 2013 Quote Quote NO, you are the one in denial that there is an issue with the mentally ill having easy access to guns. Denying a very real problem is an indication of stupidity Very few are in denial of this. And we have identified one of the few.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #65 February 19, 2013 Plenty deny that the issue of mentally ill having access to guns is not easily solved due to Constitutional constraints and therefore seem to simply disregard the document. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #66 February 19, 2013 QuoteThis, is not mental illness... its evil. Are you suggesting the people are possessed by "the Devil" or perhaps a "body thetan"?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,145 #67 February 19, 2013 QuotePlenty deny that the issue of mentally ill having access to guns is not easily solved due to Constitutional constraints and therefore seem to simply disregard the document. The Supreme Court has held that "Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited." Try reading SCOTUS decisions sometime, it will make you a better lawyer.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toolbox 0 #68 February 19, 2013 You once again convienently mention the 22 children killed by the evil mass murderer but failed to bring to light 1,825 children who die every year here in the US at the hands of their own parents. If you told the parents of any kids who were victims of mass murder that 22 dead kids is a small number compared to all the kids who die from child abuse,or serial killers,ect, they would get emotional and some would want to lash out at you,but it still does not change the facts that in a country with over 300 million people,where violent criminals and nut cases are set loose on society on a regular bases, because of an overcrowded prison system,22 is indeed a small number. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,102 #69 February 19, 2013 >You once again convienently mention the 22 children killed by the evil mass murderer >but failed to bring to light 1,825 children who die every year here in the US at the >hands of their own parents. Or the 565 other kids killed by gun violence every year. (119 under 12 years old.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,145 #70 February 19, 2013 QuoteYou once again convienently mention the 22 children killed by the evil mass murderer I doubt he was evil, he was just mentally ill. Why do you want mentally ill people to have easy access to guns? Do you have a personal interest in this?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toolbox 0 #71 February 19, 2013 And were those 565 all killed by good law abiding citizens or rather criminals who will have illegal weapons no matter what laws are on the books. Guns,drugs,ect,are illegal in many countries that have by far harsher punishments for breaking the law,and they still have guns,drugs,and violence in these places. Outlawing guns will have the same effect as outlawing drugs,it will make criminals who sell guns richer,and put more illegal guns on the streets. Guns are not the problem in our country,the growing lack of morality is. I believe reporting mental illness is a huge factor in the background check process and would have most likely prevented many incidents. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toolbox 0 #72 February 19, 2013 Have you not read all my post? I believe mental illness should be reported and be screened for on background checks. I am no crazier than I think you are implying, than the rest of the skydivers who fling themselves at the ground for no good reason except to get their jollies,and I'm no more or less selfish than the rest eitherI do not claim to be an environmentalist either, as I work on increasing my carbon footprint with my hedonistic behavior as I board the aircraft spewing fumes into the environment and burning energy that could be used for the benefit of the rest of humanity. Trying to be an environmentalist while skydiving would be not only crazy,but hypocritical. But I do know alot of skydivers who like to think they are environmentalist. All non skydivers are convinced we are all batshit,but feel we are only a threat to ourselves until someone go's in at a daycare or something,at wich point we will be a threat to them and there children. Then they might want mental and emotional screening and background checks for skydiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #73 February 20, 2013 QuoteQuotePlenty deny that the issue of mentally ill having access to guns is not easily solved due to Constitutional constraints and therefore seem to simply disregard the document. The Supreme Court has held that "Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited." Try reading SCOTUS decisions sometime, it will make you a better lawyer. Yes. And the SCOTUS has also held that the mentally ill's rights are no different from yours or mine. So I'd suggest you look at the other side of the equation. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #74 February 20, 2013 QuoteI believe mental illness should be reported and be screened for on background checks. I don't. And that's where you and I differ. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #75 February 20, 2013 QuoteQuoteI believe mental illness should be reported and be screened for on background checks. I don't. And that's where you and I differ. So then, screening against "evil" or "body thetans" are probably also off your list; yes?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
