rushmc 23 #51 February 4, 2013 QuoteI'll take that as a letter of recommendation for my file. Thanks. You got it"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #52 February 6, 2013 QuoteI'll take that as a letter of recommendation for my file. Thanks. I'm still waiting for you to come up withI'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
regulator 0 #53 February 7, 2013 QuoteWait!! What about the steers?? http://www.reporternews.com/news/2011/dec/16/gov-rick-perry-awarded-texas-monthlys-bum-steer/ http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/35anmk/ I swear, you guys are killin' me here. -------------------------------------------------- Here's something I never admitted to until I was 18 to my mother. When I was 12 I went off on a long weekend camping trip(at boy scout camp) with a new older I guy I looked up to. He mentioned...hey we rode together why dont we sleep in the same tent. I said sure because I was young and alot more innocent than I ever am today. We set up our tent and then went to the main lodge area and watched flash gordon and played with some new fangled thing called an apple computer. I was getting tired so I went to went to lay down and when I fell asleep, I woke up and it was raining. So I looked over and the guy that rode with me said...hey just unzip your sleeping bag (because mine was soaked from rolling up against the tent) and well lay mine on top and yours on bottom. Sure, whatever. So I fall asleep and I wake up. His hand was in my pants. Ok whatever I guess he was just sleepwalking with his hands. I go back to sleep. I wake up again...Hand in my underwear again. OK...pull it out and go try to go back to sleep and I feel him get on my back and then he proceed to tell me if I scream he would break my neck. Then he proceded to do some bad things to that 12 year old kid. I got home still in some state of shock, and I happened to turn on the TV...my parents were still gone at the time. I started watching TV and there was this gay rights parade on TV. They kept saying about how gay people were people too and I kept wondering...am I gay now? Is that me? I felt bad and found my dads service revolver and stuck it to my head because I didnt want to wear a dress and like other dudes. Something in my mind said no and I hid it back in his drawer. I didnt ever tell her until after I graduated (6 months late because i quit high school due to conflicts at home and at school...it didnt help that I liked to be different and went to an all redneck highschool). But she asked...oh why dont you ever talk about russell that nice guy from boy scouts. I said fuck that motherfucker. Why? Then I told her why. To this day if she knew what he looked like she would have choked him with her bare hands. Now I'm not saying everyone in the boy scouts was like this. In fact, this was the only person I met in the entire time that exhibited those traits. I even see my troop leader...Mr Batson and I have a great deal of respect for him because he is a good man. But when you sit up on your high horse do you think about situations like this? Or only about the equality of gay people? I saw him around 15 years ago when I was in my late 20s'. He looked the same and if I wasnt so fucked up on drugs I probably would have kicked his ass. It took years to get over that. I guess its possible some of that still lingers with me. But when you stand in judgement, make sure you think of the entire picture, not just one side of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #54 February 7, 2013 QuoteSo why is it not ok to risk having homosexual Scout leaders because they might be pedophiles when it is OK to have heterosexual Scout leaders even though they might be pedophiles?Quote What makes you assume that pedophiles in scouting is acceptable on ANY level? You say that Gay Scout leaders will not reduce pedophilia within the organisation. Why would homosexuals need to be less likely to be pedophiles than heterosexuals in order to be allowed the same position of responsibility over children? You've mixed two questions together. I'll go ahead and answer both: 1. "You say that Gay Scout leaders will not reduce pedophilia within the organisation. Why would homosexuals need to be less likely to be pedophiles than heterosexuals..." - Good question: Ask it of those those who claim that. 2. "...in order to be allowed the same position of responsibility over children?" - Who told you that being "less likely" to be a pedophile is a requirement for "being allowed", as you put it, to participate as a Scouting Leader? I've never heard that before. How are you going to measure that?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #55 February 7, 2013 QuoteQuoteReference to cherry picking QuoteYou are cherry picking individual aspects of earlier American behaviour and ignoring wider values. You dreaming? Point to where I "picked" anything. What have you misconstrued now? The comment was for your cherry picking individual aspects. Your insert changing the context was in rather poor tasete or are you really that weak in argument tonight?Wake up! Quote By looking at individual things that were absolutely fine and dandy back in the day you could build up a list of traditional 'values' that are now considered pretty reprehensible. But that would be the wrong way of looking at it. Why? Quote"Left Field", from baseball, equates to Long On (right handed batter), Long Off (leftie) QuoteYeah, and short leg would be something like Short Stop. So how in the hell did you get off on SS? Left field is the idiom...LEFT FIELD. I understand you are a Brit, but none I have met so far are that dense. Are you in the game or not? Damn! Go sit on the bench and wake up! QuoteSo to ditch the sports metaphors and just spell it out - what you say was 'left field' is actually referencing what Rick Perry is quoted as saying in the article that was linked in the first post of the thread. So it's pretty much part of the core of the discussion. Nope. Not even a good guess. Wake UP!My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davjohns 1 #56 February 7, 2013 I don't know if this is a first person account of yours, or something you have copied. Either way, it is a horrible story. Personally, I have no issue with capital punishment for rapists. That's exactly what is described. Still...that guy was a pedophile. But was he gay? They are two distinct things. I'm sure nobody is advocating letting pedophiles work with children. This thread is about adults who prefer same sex adults as partners being allowed to work with children.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 3 #57 February 7, 2013 QuoteThis thread is about adults who prefer same sex adults as partners being allowed to work with children. It's also very much about allowing openly gay youths to be scouts alongside their straight fellow scouts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites regulator 0 #58 February 7, 2013 That happened to me when I was 12 years old in boy scouts. I am not making it up or looking for attention. It happend and I'm all growz up now (kinda). I just wanted to explain from another perspective of what can happen. Not all boy scout masters are bad...in fact Im sure that some gay scout masters have their young uns with the best intentions. But when you are responsible for other peoples kids I dont think the Boy Scouts should be looked down aupon because they dont want what happened to me to happen to other kids. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DiverMike 5 #59 February 7, 2013 I have been an active adult Leader in Boy Scout troops for over 20 years. I personally don't think homosexuals are a problem, either as members or leaders, nor have I met anyone in my Scouting Career who is truly homophobic. I have run into 2 pedophiles whom we kicked out and reported to the police, but that is a different and disgusting situation. However, IMHO there are two reasons the BSA has the stance it does: 1. The Mormon church is the biggest problem in that it provides significant revenue to Scouting and it has made it clear it would no longer support Scouting if it allows homosexuals. If BSA loses that revenue stream, they will have to downsize its paid staff or charge more per boy. Personally, I say good riddance to the Mormons. 2. Almost every boy who is active in scouting has to overcome peer group pressure to stay in. It isn't a 'cool' organization. IMHO, I don't believe the gain in membership based on a few gay boys joining is going to offset the exodus of boys who can't deal with the "hey nerds - you now allow fags" taunting. Eventually, scouting will allow gays. The net effect is it will be a smaller organization for doing so, but IHMO a better organization. For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skinnay 0 #60 February 7, 2013 QuoteI dont think the Boy Scouts should be looked down aupon because they dont want what happened to me to happen to other kids. Have you considered the relation to this argument and your stance on gun control? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites regulator 0 #61 February 7, 2013 I grew up with a mildly abusive father. He was spoiled as a kid and took out his troubles at work on my mom and me. Lately he has grown up quite a bit and now that I am in my 40's I decided to involve myself in the one thing my father loves other than my family. Firearms. He is an expert at many aspects including gunsmithing and reloading. Since my rough childhood I have learned to grow past my troubles and to start feeling sorry for myself. But to answer you question no, because I was abused as a kid and specifically chose NOT to abuse others should be reason enough. If it werent for my mom being such a good person I probably wouldnt be alive today. And now that I have a good relationship with my father Im not going to give up one of the common bonds that helps bring us together. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skinnay 0 #62 February 7, 2013 I was thinking more along the lines of: A sexual assault happened in the boy scouts. Should we ban gays? Will banning gays stop sexual assaults? and A person was shot and killed. Should we ban guns. Will banning guns stop shootings? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 3 #63 February 7, 2013 I'm truly very sorry for what happened to you. When I was in the 2nd grade we had a mean, abusive school principal who'd find lame excuses to "discipline" me for any fabricated reason, usually the guise of bad schoolwork, by grabbing my arm in a vise-like grip and hitting my ass excrutiatingly hard with his hand-of-stone. Any excuse he could to inflict pain, and it always seemed to end with his big hand on my little ass. He used to keep a paddle in his office to administer some of his whuppings. A fine piece of workmanship; it had holes drilled into it to lessen the weight and wind resistance and give it just that right balance. He was verbally and emotionally abusive to me, too, which I won't detail. He's 20 years dead; if I could exhume his grave and piss onto the face of his rotting corpse, I would. So. Now that we've each discussed our bona fides, I want to say that I don't believe for a minute that the genuine original, or the institutional, reason for the Boy Scouts' ban on gays has ever been to minimize the risk of assault by pedophiles. Public relations packaging and after-the-fact rationalizing aside, for the Scouts it's always been about maintaining Puritan morals and couching arcane bigotries in the veneer of "wholesome family values". I was in the Boy Scouts for a while, and I value the experience. This Neanderthal policy has been out of place in mainstream American society for decades. It's high time for it to be consigned to the ash-heap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites regulator 0 #64 February 7, 2013 QuoteI was thinking more along the lines of: A sexual assault happened in the boy scouts. Should we ban gays? Will banning gays stop sexual assaults? and A person was shot and killed. Should we ban guns. Will banning guns stop shootings? I dont think banning of any type is good. I am sure there are some good boy scout adults that are gay that could be possibly be better than some straight boy scouts. However try to think from an organizational standpoint where kids like me have been abused in the past. I'm not advocating banning of anyone. I think the stance they took whereby possibly letting the individual troops decide whats best for them should be the best route to take. The most important aspect of what I divulged was to illustrate that the men high up responsible for other peoples kids dont take that responsibility lightly and I dont think they should be called gay haters per se because they dont want the possibility of what happened to me to happen to other kids. I think ideally letting the individual troops choose whats best for their communities is the best answer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DiverMike 5 #65 February 7, 2013 The BSA is a business that makes many decisions that are business based. I am not convinced their business model is "always been about maintaining Puritan morals and couching arcane bigotries in the veneer of wholesome family values" For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,610 #66 February 7, 2013 QuoteWhat makes you assume that pedophiles in scouting is acceptable on ANY level? There's a risk that a gay person might be a pedophile. If that risk makes them ineligible to be a Scout leader then we'd have to disband the entire organisation because there's a risk that anyone might be a pedophile. Man, woman, gay, straight it doesn't matter - they might want to fuck your kids. It's the risk of living inside human society. Quote1. "You say that Gay Scout leaders will not reduce pedophilia within the organisation. Why would homosexuals need to be less likely to be pedophiles than heterosexuals..." - Good question: Ask it of those those who claim that. 2. "...in order to be allowed the same position of responsibility over children?" - Who told you that being "less likely" to be a pedophile is a requirement for "being allowed", as you put it, to participate as a Scouting Leader? I've never heard that before. How are you going to measure that? I'm sorry, I was just assuming that the post I replied to had a point. You said this "It's apparent to me that the gay community cannot deal with the idea that sexual deviant behavior or pedophilia comes in homosexual packages, too." Why? Who says that gay people can't be pedophiles? And you said this "Gay leaders in Scouting is not going to reduce any of that. " Who says that it would reduce sexual predations? And if you're not saying it as a reason to stop gay people from being scout leaders, what is the relevance to the discussion.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,610 #67 February 7, 2013 QuoteQuoteBy looking at individual things that were absolutely fine and dandy back in the day you could build up a list of traditional 'values' that are now considered pretty reprehensible. But that would be the wrong way of looking at it.Why? Because then you would have things like slavery, racism, homophobia and stealing from the Indians as traditional American values. If you look at the wider picture, traditional American values would include things like liberty, work ethic, pursuit of happiness and the specific behaviours listed above are clearly abberations from that. Similarly, just because homosexuality has been discriminated against doesn't make discrimination a traditional value. QuoteSo how in the hell did you get off on SS? Left field is the idiom...LEFT FIELD. I understand you are a Brit, but none I have met so far are that dense. Are you in the game or not? Damn! Go sit on the bench and wake up! OK, I can see I'm going to have to break out the guide to metaphors for fuckin' retards here. You said the comment was out of left field. You were wrong, it was pertinent to the core of the discussion. Therefore, I characterised it as being out of short leg (or Short Stop) because that is a position that is much more involved with the game. If I'd known that was going to be so difficult for you to follow I'd have just left it alone. So I apologise for making your widdle brain hurt. QuoteNope. Not even a good guess. I don't have to guess. I know why I wrote the comment you replied to. The comment about teen incarceration and pregnancy is referencing something that Rick Perry did say and was quoted as saying in the article linked in the first post of the thread. This is a true fact. So, given that we are in a thread about Rick Perry's views on gays and the boy scouts, how is a comment on Rick Perry's views on gays and the boy scouts coming out of left field?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 3 #68 February 7, 2013 Quotehow is a comment on Rick Perry's views on gays and the boy scouts coming out of left field? Because, traditionally, they're either pitchers or catchers. OK, that was awful, but I'm a sucker for a straight line. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites regulator 0 #69 February 7, 2013 traditional American values would include things like liberty, work ethic, pursuit of happiness and the specific behaviours listed above are clearly abberations from that. Obviously alot has changed since then because many so called citizens like the supposed mom at the mall in atlanta feel no need to work hard. Probably no need to work at all since someone else can pay for her kids...which the money would most likely to to her anyway. Soceity has changed. Some for the good...some for the bad. The Boy Scouts shouldnt be held accountable for trying ensure there is a very mininal chance something bad could happen to a child under their watch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 3 #70 February 7, 2013 Quoteso called citizens like the supposed mom at the mall in atlanta feel no need to work hard. Probably no need to work at all since someone else can pay for her kids...which the money would most likely to to her anyway. I thought we established in the other thread that there was nothing in any of the news stories that identified her or her husband's employment and/or social benefits status. Has more infomation about those factors been made public? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites regulator 0 #71 February 7, 2013 Yes andy what you say is true. But you and I both know the chances of me being right...are very high. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,610 #72 February 7, 2013 QuoteThat happened to me when I was 12 years old in boy scouts. I am not making it up or looking for attention. It happend and I'm all growz up now (kinda). I just wanted to explain from another perspective of what can happen. Not all boy scout masters are bad...in fact Im sure that some gay scout masters have their young uns with the best intentions. But when you are responsible for other peoples kids I dont think the Boy Scouts should be looked down aupon because they dont want what happened to me to happen to other kids. Of course what happened to you is terrible and of course they want to minimise the risk of that happening - but homosexual scout leaders do not affect the likelihood of that happening. Pedophilia really isn't strictly linked to classic sexual orientation. It's not that gay men who are pedophiles molest boys and straight men who are pedophiles molest girls. It's essentially indiscriminate.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,610 #73 February 7, 2013 Quote OK, that was awful, but I'm a sucker for a straight line. Pretty cringeworthy, but you're still doing a hell of a lot better than the other AndyDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites catfishhunter 2 #74 February 7, 2013 QuoteI have been an active adult Leader in Boy Scout troops for over 20 years. I personally don't think homosexuals are a problem, either as members or leaders, nor have I met anyone in my Scouting Career who is truly homophobic. I have run into 2 pedophiles whom we kicked out and reported to the police, but that is a different and disgusting situation. However, IMHO there are two reasons the BSA has the stance it does: 1. The Mormon church is the biggest problem in that it provides significant revenue to Scouting and it has made it clear it would no longer support Scouting if it allows homosexuals. If BSA loses that revenue stream, they will have to downsize its paid staff or charge more per boy. Personally, I say good riddance to the Mormons. 2. Almost every boy who is active in scouting has to overcome peer group pressure to stay in. It isn't a 'cool' organization. IMHO, I don't believe the gain in membership based on a few gay boys joining is going to offset the exodus of boys who can't deal with the "hey nerds - you now allow fags" taunting. Eventually, scouting will allow gays. The net effect is it will be a smaller organization for doing so, but IHMO a better organization. So The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the problem? Just what would that problem be again? The support and membership the Church brings? That's a problem? Only problem we have here is the homosexual agenda of destroying everything/everyone that doesn't agree with their lifestyle. You wont see me trying to join the NAACP so why the fuck do the gays want to join the boy scouts other then to destroy it...Well that and reqruitment... MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #75 February 7, 2013 Yea! J Edgar Hoover was a poof for crying out loud. What the hell are American values anyway?When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 3 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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popsjumper 2 #55 February 7, 2013 QuoteQuoteReference to cherry picking QuoteYou are cherry picking individual aspects of earlier American behaviour and ignoring wider values. You dreaming? Point to where I "picked" anything. What have you misconstrued now? The comment was for your cherry picking individual aspects. Your insert changing the context was in rather poor tasete or are you really that weak in argument tonight?Wake up! Quote By looking at individual things that were absolutely fine and dandy back in the day you could build up a list of traditional 'values' that are now considered pretty reprehensible. But that would be the wrong way of looking at it. Why? Quote"Left Field", from baseball, equates to Long On (right handed batter), Long Off (leftie) QuoteYeah, and short leg would be something like Short Stop. So how in the hell did you get off on SS? Left field is the idiom...LEFT FIELD. I understand you are a Brit, but none I have met so far are that dense. Are you in the game or not? Damn! Go sit on the bench and wake up! QuoteSo to ditch the sports metaphors and just spell it out - what you say was 'left field' is actually referencing what Rick Perry is quoted as saying in the article that was linked in the first post of the thread. So it's pretty much part of the core of the discussion. Nope. Not even a good guess. Wake UP!My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davjohns 1 #56 February 7, 2013 I don't know if this is a first person account of yours, or something you have copied. Either way, it is a horrible story. Personally, I have no issue with capital punishment for rapists. That's exactly what is described. Still...that guy was a pedophile. But was he gay? They are two distinct things. I'm sure nobody is advocating letting pedophiles work with children. This thread is about adults who prefer same sex adults as partners being allowed to work with children.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 3 #57 February 7, 2013 QuoteThis thread is about adults who prefer same sex adults as partners being allowed to work with children. It's also very much about allowing openly gay youths to be scouts alongside their straight fellow scouts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites regulator 0 #58 February 7, 2013 That happened to me when I was 12 years old in boy scouts. I am not making it up or looking for attention. It happend and I'm all growz up now (kinda). I just wanted to explain from another perspective of what can happen. Not all boy scout masters are bad...in fact Im sure that some gay scout masters have their young uns with the best intentions. But when you are responsible for other peoples kids I dont think the Boy Scouts should be looked down aupon because they dont want what happened to me to happen to other kids. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DiverMike 5 #59 February 7, 2013 I have been an active adult Leader in Boy Scout troops for over 20 years. I personally don't think homosexuals are a problem, either as members or leaders, nor have I met anyone in my Scouting Career who is truly homophobic. I have run into 2 pedophiles whom we kicked out and reported to the police, but that is a different and disgusting situation. However, IMHO there are two reasons the BSA has the stance it does: 1. The Mormon church is the biggest problem in that it provides significant revenue to Scouting and it has made it clear it would no longer support Scouting if it allows homosexuals. If BSA loses that revenue stream, they will have to downsize its paid staff or charge more per boy. Personally, I say good riddance to the Mormons. 2. Almost every boy who is active in scouting has to overcome peer group pressure to stay in. It isn't a 'cool' organization. IMHO, I don't believe the gain in membership based on a few gay boys joining is going to offset the exodus of boys who can't deal with the "hey nerds - you now allow fags" taunting. Eventually, scouting will allow gays. The net effect is it will be a smaller organization for doing so, but IHMO a better organization. For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skinnay 0 #60 February 7, 2013 QuoteI dont think the Boy Scouts should be looked down aupon because they dont want what happened to me to happen to other kids. Have you considered the relation to this argument and your stance on gun control? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites regulator 0 #61 February 7, 2013 I grew up with a mildly abusive father. He was spoiled as a kid and took out his troubles at work on my mom and me. Lately he has grown up quite a bit and now that I am in my 40's I decided to involve myself in the one thing my father loves other than my family. Firearms. He is an expert at many aspects including gunsmithing and reloading. Since my rough childhood I have learned to grow past my troubles and to start feeling sorry for myself. But to answer you question no, because I was abused as a kid and specifically chose NOT to abuse others should be reason enough. If it werent for my mom being such a good person I probably wouldnt be alive today. And now that I have a good relationship with my father Im not going to give up one of the common bonds that helps bring us together. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skinnay 0 #62 February 7, 2013 I was thinking more along the lines of: A sexual assault happened in the boy scouts. Should we ban gays? Will banning gays stop sexual assaults? and A person was shot and killed. Should we ban guns. Will banning guns stop shootings? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 3 #63 February 7, 2013 I'm truly very sorry for what happened to you. When I was in the 2nd grade we had a mean, abusive school principal who'd find lame excuses to "discipline" me for any fabricated reason, usually the guise of bad schoolwork, by grabbing my arm in a vise-like grip and hitting my ass excrutiatingly hard with his hand-of-stone. Any excuse he could to inflict pain, and it always seemed to end with his big hand on my little ass. He used to keep a paddle in his office to administer some of his whuppings. A fine piece of workmanship; it had holes drilled into it to lessen the weight and wind resistance and give it just that right balance. He was verbally and emotionally abusive to me, too, which I won't detail. He's 20 years dead; if I could exhume his grave and piss onto the face of his rotting corpse, I would. So. Now that we've each discussed our bona fides, I want to say that I don't believe for a minute that the genuine original, or the institutional, reason for the Boy Scouts' ban on gays has ever been to minimize the risk of assault by pedophiles. Public relations packaging and after-the-fact rationalizing aside, for the Scouts it's always been about maintaining Puritan morals and couching arcane bigotries in the veneer of "wholesome family values". I was in the Boy Scouts for a while, and I value the experience. This Neanderthal policy has been out of place in mainstream American society for decades. It's high time for it to be consigned to the ash-heap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites regulator 0 #64 February 7, 2013 QuoteI was thinking more along the lines of: A sexual assault happened in the boy scouts. Should we ban gays? Will banning gays stop sexual assaults? and A person was shot and killed. Should we ban guns. Will banning guns stop shootings? I dont think banning of any type is good. I am sure there are some good boy scout adults that are gay that could be possibly be better than some straight boy scouts. However try to think from an organizational standpoint where kids like me have been abused in the past. I'm not advocating banning of anyone. I think the stance they took whereby possibly letting the individual troops decide whats best for them should be the best route to take. The most important aspect of what I divulged was to illustrate that the men high up responsible for other peoples kids dont take that responsibility lightly and I dont think they should be called gay haters per se because they dont want the possibility of what happened to me to happen to other kids. I think ideally letting the individual troops choose whats best for their communities is the best answer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DiverMike 5 #65 February 7, 2013 The BSA is a business that makes many decisions that are business based. I am not convinced their business model is "always been about maintaining Puritan morals and couching arcane bigotries in the veneer of wholesome family values" For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,610 #66 February 7, 2013 QuoteWhat makes you assume that pedophiles in scouting is acceptable on ANY level? There's a risk that a gay person might be a pedophile. If that risk makes them ineligible to be a Scout leader then we'd have to disband the entire organisation because there's a risk that anyone might be a pedophile. Man, woman, gay, straight it doesn't matter - they might want to fuck your kids. It's the risk of living inside human society. Quote1. "You say that Gay Scout leaders will not reduce pedophilia within the organisation. Why would homosexuals need to be less likely to be pedophiles than heterosexuals..." - Good question: Ask it of those those who claim that. 2. "...in order to be allowed the same position of responsibility over children?" - Who told you that being "less likely" to be a pedophile is a requirement for "being allowed", as you put it, to participate as a Scouting Leader? I've never heard that before. How are you going to measure that? I'm sorry, I was just assuming that the post I replied to had a point. You said this "It's apparent to me that the gay community cannot deal with the idea that sexual deviant behavior or pedophilia comes in homosexual packages, too." Why? Who says that gay people can't be pedophiles? And you said this "Gay leaders in Scouting is not going to reduce any of that. " Who says that it would reduce sexual predations? And if you're not saying it as a reason to stop gay people from being scout leaders, what is the relevance to the discussion.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,610 #67 February 7, 2013 QuoteQuoteBy looking at individual things that were absolutely fine and dandy back in the day you could build up a list of traditional 'values' that are now considered pretty reprehensible. But that would be the wrong way of looking at it.Why? Because then you would have things like slavery, racism, homophobia and stealing from the Indians as traditional American values. If you look at the wider picture, traditional American values would include things like liberty, work ethic, pursuit of happiness and the specific behaviours listed above are clearly abberations from that. Similarly, just because homosexuality has been discriminated against doesn't make discrimination a traditional value. QuoteSo how in the hell did you get off on SS? Left field is the idiom...LEFT FIELD. I understand you are a Brit, but none I have met so far are that dense. Are you in the game or not? Damn! Go sit on the bench and wake up! OK, I can see I'm going to have to break out the guide to metaphors for fuckin' retards here. You said the comment was out of left field. You were wrong, it was pertinent to the core of the discussion. Therefore, I characterised it as being out of short leg (or Short Stop) because that is a position that is much more involved with the game. If I'd known that was going to be so difficult for you to follow I'd have just left it alone. So I apologise for making your widdle brain hurt. QuoteNope. Not even a good guess. I don't have to guess. I know why I wrote the comment you replied to. The comment about teen incarceration and pregnancy is referencing something that Rick Perry did say and was quoted as saying in the article linked in the first post of the thread. This is a true fact. So, given that we are in a thread about Rick Perry's views on gays and the boy scouts, how is a comment on Rick Perry's views on gays and the boy scouts coming out of left field?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 3 #68 February 7, 2013 Quotehow is a comment on Rick Perry's views on gays and the boy scouts coming out of left field? Because, traditionally, they're either pitchers or catchers. OK, that was awful, but I'm a sucker for a straight line. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites regulator 0 #69 February 7, 2013 traditional American values would include things like liberty, work ethic, pursuit of happiness and the specific behaviours listed above are clearly abberations from that. Obviously alot has changed since then because many so called citizens like the supposed mom at the mall in atlanta feel no need to work hard. Probably no need to work at all since someone else can pay for her kids...which the money would most likely to to her anyway. Soceity has changed. Some for the good...some for the bad. The Boy Scouts shouldnt be held accountable for trying ensure there is a very mininal chance something bad could happen to a child under their watch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 3 #70 February 7, 2013 Quoteso called citizens like the supposed mom at the mall in atlanta feel no need to work hard. Probably no need to work at all since someone else can pay for her kids...which the money would most likely to to her anyway. I thought we established in the other thread that there was nothing in any of the news stories that identified her or her husband's employment and/or social benefits status. Has more infomation about those factors been made public? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites regulator 0 #71 February 7, 2013 Yes andy what you say is true. But you and I both know the chances of me being right...are very high. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,610 #72 February 7, 2013 QuoteThat happened to me when I was 12 years old in boy scouts. I am not making it up or looking for attention. It happend and I'm all growz up now (kinda). I just wanted to explain from another perspective of what can happen. Not all boy scout masters are bad...in fact Im sure that some gay scout masters have their young uns with the best intentions. But when you are responsible for other peoples kids I dont think the Boy Scouts should be looked down aupon because they dont want what happened to me to happen to other kids. Of course what happened to you is terrible and of course they want to minimise the risk of that happening - but homosexual scout leaders do not affect the likelihood of that happening. Pedophilia really isn't strictly linked to classic sexual orientation. It's not that gay men who are pedophiles molest boys and straight men who are pedophiles molest girls. It's essentially indiscriminate.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,610 #73 February 7, 2013 Quote OK, that was awful, but I'm a sucker for a straight line. Pretty cringeworthy, but you're still doing a hell of a lot better than the other AndyDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites catfishhunter 2 #74 February 7, 2013 QuoteI have been an active adult Leader in Boy Scout troops for over 20 years. I personally don't think homosexuals are a problem, either as members or leaders, nor have I met anyone in my Scouting Career who is truly homophobic. I have run into 2 pedophiles whom we kicked out and reported to the police, but that is a different and disgusting situation. However, IMHO there are two reasons the BSA has the stance it does: 1. The Mormon church is the biggest problem in that it provides significant revenue to Scouting and it has made it clear it would no longer support Scouting if it allows homosexuals. If BSA loses that revenue stream, they will have to downsize its paid staff or charge more per boy. Personally, I say good riddance to the Mormons. 2. Almost every boy who is active in scouting has to overcome peer group pressure to stay in. It isn't a 'cool' organization. IMHO, I don't believe the gain in membership based on a few gay boys joining is going to offset the exodus of boys who can't deal with the "hey nerds - you now allow fags" taunting. Eventually, scouting will allow gays. The net effect is it will be a smaller organization for doing so, but IHMO a better organization. So The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the problem? Just what would that problem be again? The support and membership the Church brings? That's a problem? Only problem we have here is the homosexual agenda of destroying everything/everyone that doesn't agree with their lifestyle. You wont see me trying to join the NAACP so why the fuck do the gays want to join the boy scouts other then to destroy it...Well that and reqruitment... MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #75 February 7, 2013 Yea! J Edgar Hoover was a poof for crying out loud. What the hell are American values anyway?When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 3 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
davjohns 1 #56 February 7, 2013 I don't know if this is a first person account of yours, or something you have copied. Either way, it is a horrible story. Personally, I have no issue with capital punishment for rapists. That's exactly what is described. Still...that guy was a pedophile. But was he gay? They are two distinct things. I'm sure nobody is advocating letting pedophiles work with children. This thread is about adults who prefer same sex adults as partners being allowed to work with children.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 3 #57 February 7, 2013 QuoteThis thread is about adults who prefer same sex adults as partners being allowed to work with children. It's also very much about allowing openly gay youths to be scouts alongside their straight fellow scouts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
regulator 0 #58 February 7, 2013 That happened to me when I was 12 years old in boy scouts. I am not making it up or looking for attention. It happend and I'm all growz up now (kinda). I just wanted to explain from another perspective of what can happen. Not all boy scout masters are bad...in fact Im sure that some gay scout masters have their young uns with the best intentions. But when you are responsible for other peoples kids I dont think the Boy Scouts should be looked down aupon because they dont want what happened to me to happen to other kids. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiverMike 5 #59 February 7, 2013 I have been an active adult Leader in Boy Scout troops for over 20 years. I personally don't think homosexuals are a problem, either as members or leaders, nor have I met anyone in my Scouting Career who is truly homophobic. I have run into 2 pedophiles whom we kicked out and reported to the police, but that is a different and disgusting situation. However, IMHO there are two reasons the BSA has the stance it does: 1. The Mormon church is the biggest problem in that it provides significant revenue to Scouting and it has made it clear it would no longer support Scouting if it allows homosexuals. If BSA loses that revenue stream, they will have to downsize its paid staff or charge more per boy. Personally, I say good riddance to the Mormons. 2. Almost every boy who is active in scouting has to overcome peer group pressure to stay in. It isn't a 'cool' organization. IMHO, I don't believe the gain in membership based on a few gay boys joining is going to offset the exodus of boys who can't deal with the "hey nerds - you now allow fags" taunting. Eventually, scouting will allow gays. The net effect is it will be a smaller organization for doing so, but IHMO a better organization. For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skinnay 0 #60 February 7, 2013 QuoteI dont think the Boy Scouts should be looked down aupon because they dont want what happened to me to happen to other kids. Have you considered the relation to this argument and your stance on gun control? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
regulator 0 #61 February 7, 2013 I grew up with a mildly abusive father. He was spoiled as a kid and took out his troubles at work on my mom and me. Lately he has grown up quite a bit and now that I am in my 40's I decided to involve myself in the one thing my father loves other than my family. Firearms. He is an expert at many aspects including gunsmithing and reloading. Since my rough childhood I have learned to grow past my troubles and to start feeling sorry for myself. But to answer you question no, because I was abused as a kid and specifically chose NOT to abuse others should be reason enough. If it werent for my mom being such a good person I probably wouldnt be alive today. And now that I have a good relationship with my father Im not going to give up one of the common bonds that helps bring us together. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skinnay 0 #62 February 7, 2013 I was thinking more along the lines of: A sexual assault happened in the boy scouts. Should we ban gays? Will banning gays stop sexual assaults? and A person was shot and killed. Should we ban guns. Will banning guns stop shootings? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 3 #63 February 7, 2013 I'm truly very sorry for what happened to you. When I was in the 2nd grade we had a mean, abusive school principal who'd find lame excuses to "discipline" me for any fabricated reason, usually the guise of bad schoolwork, by grabbing my arm in a vise-like grip and hitting my ass excrutiatingly hard with his hand-of-stone. Any excuse he could to inflict pain, and it always seemed to end with his big hand on my little ass. He used to keep a paddle in his office to administer some of his whuppings. A fine piece of workmanship; it had holes drilled into it to lessen the weight and wind resistance and give it just that right balance. He was verbally and emotionally abusive to me, too, which I won't detail. He's 20 years dead; if I could exhume his grave and piss onto the face of his rotting corpse, I would. So. Now that we've each discussed our bona fides, I want to say that I don't believe for a minute that the genuine original, or the institutional, reason for the Boy Scouts' ban on gays has ever been to minimize the risk of assault by pedophiles. Public relations packaging and after-the-fact rationalizing aside, for the Scouts it's always been about maintaining Puritan morals and couching arcane bigotries in the veneer of "wholesome family values". I was in the Boy Scouts for a while, and I value the experience. This Neanderthal policy has been out of place in mainstream American society for decades. It's high time for it to be consigned to the ash-heap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
regulator 0 #64 February 7, 2013 QuoteI was thinking more along the lines of: A sexual assault happened in the boy scouts. Should we ban gays? Will banning gays stop sexual assaults? and A person was shot and killed. Should we ban guns. Will banning guns stop shootings? I dont think banning of any type is good. I am sure there are some good boy scout adults that are gay that could be possibly be better than some straight boy scouts. However try to think from an organizational standpoint where kids like me have been abused in the past. I'm not advocating banning of anyone. I think the stance they took whereby possibly letting the individual troops decide whats best for them should be the best route to take. The most important aspect of what I divulged was to illustrate that the men high up responsible for other peoples kids dont take that responsibility lightly and I dont think they should be called gay haters per se because they dont want the possibility of what happened to me to happen to other kids. I think ideally letting the individual troops choose whats best for their communities is the best answer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiverMike 5 #65 February 7, 2013 The BSA is a business that makes many decisions that are business based. I am not convinced their business model is "always been about maintaining Puritan morals and couching arcane bigotries in the veneer of wholesome family values" For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,610 #66 February 7, 2013 QuoteWhat makes you assume that pedophiles in scouting is acceptable on ANY level? There's a risk that a gay person might be a pedophile. If that risk makes them ineligible to be a Scout leader then we'd have to disband the entire organisation because there's a risk that anyone might be a pedophile. Man, woman, gay, straight it doesn't matter - they might want to fuck your kids. It's the risk of living inside human society. Quote1. "You say that Gay Scout leaders will not reduce pedophilia within the organisation. Why would homosexuals need to be less likely to be pedophiles than heterosexuals..." - Good question: Ask it of those those who claim that. 2. "...in order to be allowed the same position of responsibility over children?" - Who told you that being "less likely" to be a pedophile is a requirement for "being allowed", as you put it, to participate as a Scouting Leader? I've never heard that before. How are you going to measure that? I'm sorry, I was just assuming that the post I replied to had a point. You said this "It's apparent to me that the gay community cannot deal with the idea that sexual deviant behavior or pedophilia comes in homosexual packages, too." Why? Who says that gay people can't be pedophiles? And you said this "Gay leaders in Scouting is not going to reduce any of that. " Who says that it would reduce sexual predations? And if you're not saying it as a reason to stop gay people from being scout leaders, what is the relevance to the discussion.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,610 #67 February 7, 2013 QuoteQuoteBy looking at individual things that were absolutely fine and dandy back in the day you could build up a list of traditional 'values' that are now considered pretty reprehensible. But that would be the wrong way of looking at it.Why? Because then you would have things like slavery, racism, homophobia and stealing from the Indians as traditional American values. If you look at the wider picture, traditional American values would include things like liberty, work ethic, pursuit of happiness and the specific behaviours listed above are clearly abberations from that. Similarly, just because homosexuality has been discriminated against doesn't make discrimination a traditional value. QuoteSo how in the hell did you get off on SS? Left field is the idiom...LEFT FIELD. I understand you are a Brit, but none I have met so far are that dense. Are you in the game or not? Damn! Go sit on the bench and wake up! OK, I can see I'm going to have to break out the guide to metaphors for fuckin' retards here. You said the comment was out of left field. You were wrong, it was pertinent to the core of the discussion. Therefore, I characterised it as being out of short leg (or Short Stop) because that is a position that is much more involved with the game. If I'd known that was going to be so difficult for you to follow I'd have just left it alone. So I apologise for making your widdle brain hurt. QuoteNope. Not even a good guess. I don't have to guess. I know why I wrote the comment you replied to. The comment about teen incarceration and pregnancy is referencing something that Rick Perry did say and was quoted as saying in the article linked in the first post of the thread. This is a true fact. So, given that we are in a thread about Rick Perry's views on gays and the boy scouts, how is a comment on Rick Perry's views on gays and the boy scouts coming out of left field?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 3 #68 February 7, 2013 Quotehow is a comment on Rick Perry's views on gays and the boy scouts coming out of left field? Because, traditionally, they're either pitchers or catchers. OK, that was awful, but I'm a sucker for a straight line. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
regulator 0 #69 February 7, 2013 traditional American values would include things like liberty, work ethic, pursuit of happiness and the specific behaviours listed above are clearly abberations from that. Obviously alot has changed since then because many so called citizens like the supposed mom at the mall in atlanta feel no need to work hard. Probably no need to work at all since someone else can pay for her kids...which the money would most likely to to her anyway. Soceity has changed. Some for the good...some for the bad. The Boy Scouts shouldnt be held accountable for trying ensure there is a very mininal chance something bad could happen to a child under their watch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 3 #70 February 7, 2013 Quoteso called citizens like the supposed mom at the mall in atlanta feel no need to work hard. Probably no need to work at all since someone else can pay for her kids...which the money would most likely to to her anyway. I thought we established in the other thread that there was nothing in any of the news stories that identified her or her husband's employment and/or social benefits status. Has more infomation about those factors been made public? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
regulator 0 #71 February 7, 2013 Yes andy what you say is true. But you and I both know the chances of me being right...are very high. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,610 #72 February 7, 2013 QuoteThat happened to me when I was 12 years old in boy scouts. I am not making it up or looking for attention. It happend and I'm all growz up now (kinda). I just wanted to explain from another perspective of what can happen. Not all boy scout masters are bad...in fact Im sure that some gay scout masters have their young uns with the best intentions. But when you are responsible for other peoples kids I dont think the Boy Scouts should be looked down aupon because they dont want what happened to me to happen to other kids. Of course what happened to you is terrible and of course they want to minimise the risk of that happening - but homosexual scout leaders do not affect the likelihood of that happening. Pedophilia really isn't strictly linked to classic sexual orientation. It's not that gay men who are pedophiles molest boys and straight men who are pedophiles molest girls. It's essentially indiscriminate.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,610 #73 February 7, 2013 Quote OK, that was awful, but I'm a sucker for a straight line. Pretty cringeworthy, but you're still doing a hell of a lot better than the other AndyDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 2 #74 February 7, 2013 QuoteI have been an active adult Leader in Boy Scout troops for over 20 years. I personally don't think homosexuals are a problem, either as members or leaders, nor have I met anyone in my Scouting Career who is truly homophobic. I have run into 2 pedophiles whom we kicked out and reported to the police, but that is a different and disgusting situation. However, IMHO there are two reasons the BSA has the stance it does: 1. The Mormon church is the biggest problem in that it provides significant revenue to Scouting and it has made it clear it would no longer support Scouting if it allows homosexuals. If BSA loses that revenue stream, they will have to downsize its paid staff or charge more per boy. Personally, I say good riddance to the Mormons. 2. Almost every boy who is active in scouting has to overcome peer group pressure to stay in. It isn't a 'cool' organization. IMHO, I don't believe the gain in membership based on a few gay boys joining is going to offset the exodus of boys who can't deal with the "hey nerds - you now allow fags" taunting. Eventually, scouting will allow gays. The net effect is it will be a smaller organization for doing so, but IHMO a better organization. So The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the problem? Just what would that problem be again? The support and membership the Church brings? That's a problem? Only problem we have here is the homosexual agenda of destroying everything/everyone that doesn't agree with their lifestyle. You wont see me trying to join the NAACP so why the fuck do the gays want to join the boy scouts other then to destroy it...Well that and reqruitment... MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #75 February 7, 2013 Yea! J Edgar Hoover was a poof for crying out loud. What the hell are American values anyway?When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
