BigMikeH77 0 #51 January 30, 2013 Are there any other COMBAT veterans on this thread thann myself? Just curious, because it seems that a lot of the opinions given are based on personal belief and not on objective facts. I believe that women are as as effective as men in combat. There ARE certain combat roles that would be more challenging for most women than they are for men, yes... But this shouldn't exclude a person from serving based solely on their gender. The military has standards. If someone can't meet the standard for a given MOS, they should find a different specialty. Can you hump 95 pound artillery rounds? Can you carry X pounds of gear? Can you evaluate a casualty, exceed the physical fitness standard, shoot an enemy in the neck from 300 meters? Great, you're in. No? That's okay, we also have positions in HQ, finance, medical, supply, armory, etc... The list goes on and on. In Iraq I fought alongside christians, muslims, jews, athiests, straights, gays, men, and women. What's important is their commitment to the team, the fight, and the nation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #52 January 30, 2013 QuoteCan you hump 95 pound artillery rounds? Can you carry X pounds of gear? Can you evaluate a casualty, exceed the physical fitness standard, shoot an enemy in the neck from 300 meters? Great, you're in. No? That's okay, we also have positions in HQ, finance, medical, supply, armory, etc... none of this is 'subjective', it can all be tested directly [[great post]] ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #53 January 30, 2013 Exactly where is the front line these days?When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #54 January 30, 2013 Personally I doubt that many women could carry the loads required these days, however so long as they pass the tests and training and can tab with the lads without slowing anyone down with no allowances made for their gender whatsoever then I don't have a problem with it.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #55 January 30, 2013 QuoteIf you were severely wounded, lying in a foxhole, would you rather rely on a 95lb woman or a 200 male to drag you to safety? Depends which could run the fastest with me on their back. If it were a choice between some burger munching lard arse weight pumper or her: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/2017213.stm I'd chose her every time.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,545 #56 January 30, 2013 Just imagine someone like Vasquez in Aliens Wendy P. There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigMikeH77 0 #57 January 30, 2013 QuoteExactly where is the front line these days? It's in your head. Seriously. For me, the mental exertion, stress, and anguish of combat was far more destructive than the physical injuries. Hit six IED's, took more mortar, rocket, and small arms fire than I can even count - but the mental part of combat can sometimes be the most destructive. The 90's song from the Cranberries "Zombie" comes to mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #58 January 30, 2013 QuoteIn the real world there are 135 pound men too, serving....Gravitymaster doesn't take that into account too. IMO, the standards should be identical. Anyone meeting them is qualified (male or female), anyone not is not qualified (male or female). I fail to see this as a gender thing, but rather as a requirements thing. Ian Still suffering from comprehension problems, I see. I have already said twice in this thread that if a woman can meet the combat physical and mental requirements that I'm ok with them going into combat. Now I've said it 3 times. Get it yet? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #59 January 30, 2013 Quote>You mean, your world. Big difference. No, real world. The "95 lb woman vs 200lb male" is a strawman, one you invented. In the real world you'll depend on the people you serve with. Not a straw man. It's a scenario. And one that could very likely occur. I now return you to your world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #60 January 30, 2013 Quote I just think most guys would take more responsibility and greater risk to protect a girl then a guy. Thats because you're a civvy on a previous thread you said your Dad had seen combat if I recall, ask him about how he felt about the men who were next to him and what he would have done for them. Its a bond which transcends normal relationships as you know them. Quote Also,women in combat and captured have a greater chance of being not only tortured but raped as a form of torture. I don't think guys have that added threat. Take the money and take your chances its a possibility they knew about when they signed on the dotted line and from recent reports they needn't wait until they go to war to be at higher risk of being raped. http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/07/first-of-12-accused-air-force-instructors-convicted-of-raping-trainees/When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #61 January 30, 2013 Well saidWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #62 January 30, 2013 QuoteQuoteQuoteIf you were severely wounded, lying in a foxhole, would you rather rely on a 95lb woman or a 200 male to drag you to safety? If you're in a foxhole, you're in a defensive position with others all around you and probably in the spot you wouldn't want to be dragged from until it's secure. Second - picture more like a 135 pound woman. Or a 150 pound woman. It's more of what we see. Third - they've done a fantastic job so far in combat so far. All you have done is twist my question to one that better suits your thinking. So lets try it another way. Suppose you are on patrol with a 135lb woman and you weigh 265lbs. You get wounded by a sniper but are still alive as long as you can get medical treatment within 15 minutes. Would you rather have a 135lb woman to drag you to safety of a 220lb male? Why not just answer the question instead of twisting it? (I know you lawyers like to do that but this isn't a Court) ignoring the Trauma care aspect of whats best to do if you've only got 15 mins and have been hit... The Capt. in the link I posted just a little further up has passed her All Arm's Commando Course, the first woman to have done so. To pass, one of the tests is to run 200 metres carrying your kit your weapon and your oppo all his kit and weapon in 90 seconds having first done the RMC bottom field assault course in under 5 minutes and a 30 foot rope climb with belt kit & weapon. She did it just the same as the men and with no allowance for her gender then thats your hypothetical woman argument busted.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Croc 0 #63 January 30, 2013 We lost the Vietnam War to an enemy that relied on women in combat roles. If a female sniper can kill the enemy at 1000 meters, what does it matter whether she can haul someone out of a foxhole? Everyone brings strengths and weaknesses to any situation. Many physically strong men shit their pants the first time they see an open door on jump run; many women can handle that situation just fine. Weighing 265 pounds (your previous example) would, I would guess, be a serious weakness in today's combat environment where endurance and speed would be more important than physical strength. If they can do the job, (and apparently they can), let them have the job and be damn grateful that they are willing to serve in harm's way so that you can continue to deride them from the comfort of your couch. Foxhole? What century are you living in?"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so." Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davjohns 1 #64 January 30, 2013 There were foxholes in Shield / Storm. I haven't seen one since.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #65 January 30, 2013 Quote Quote In the real world there are 135 pound men too, serving....Gravitymaster doesn't take that into account too. IMO, the standards should be identical. Anyone meeting them is qualified (male or female), anyone not is not qualified (male or female). I fail to see this as a gender thing, but rather as a requirements thing. Ian Still suffering from comprehension problems, I see. I have already said twice in this thread that if a woman can meet the combat physical and mental requirements that I'm ok with them going into combat. Now I've said it 3 times. Get it yet? Oh I get it. You apparently don't think men can be 135 pounds. I was highlighting the fact that you keep failing to take that into account. No need to get snippy cause you're on the ropes buddy IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #66 January 30, 2013 Quotepicture more like a 135 pound woman. Or a 150 pound woman. Quote...suppose you are on patrol with a 135lb woman... QuoteI seriously doubt a 95 lb woman... QuoteYou think some 73 lb woman... Quick! Somebody get her a cheeseburger! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davjohns 1 #67 January 30, 2013 LOLI know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
promise5 17 #68 January 30, 2013 QuoteQuote I just think most guys would take more responsibility and greater risk to protect a girl then a guy. Thats because you're a civvy on a previous thread you said your Dad had seen combat if I recall, ask him about how he felt about the men who were next to him and what he would have done for them. Its a bond which transcends normal relationships as you know them. Quote Also,women in combat and captured have a greater chance of being not only tortured but raped as a form of torture. I don't think guys have that added threat. Take the money and take your chances its a possibility they knew about when they signed on the dotted line and from recent reports they needn't wait until they go to war to be at higher risk of being raped. http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/07/first-of-12-accused-air-force-instructors-convicted-of-raping-trainees/I'm very aware of that fact.No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible. Believe me I tried. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #69 January 30, 2013 Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,078 #70 January 30, 2013 >Not a straw man. It's a scenario. And one that could very likely occur. So could the 110lb video gaming guy vs the 170lb rugby playing woman. Which do you want next to you when you're wounded? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,108 #71 January 30, 2013 Quote>Not a straw man. It's a scenario. And one that could very likely occur. So could the 110lb video gaming guy vs the 170lb rugby playing woman. Which do you want next to you when you're wounded? Could be a "You're injured - you must have deserved it" Republican vs a "Need to look out for the team" Dem.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #72 January 30, 2013 Quote>Not a straw man. It's a scenario. And one that could very likely occur. So could the 110lb video gaming guy vs the 170lb rugby playing woman. Which do you want next to you when you're wounded? can the vidigeek operate the defibrilator while Butch holds the wounds closed? (Actually, whichever one that knows how to use the medical kit) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #73 January 30, 2013 [email]Let's just cut to the chase here and skip the nonsense. Some men don't want women in combat because if women can do that, then what is the "special" role a man plays in the world? Face it. Women already ARE in combat. Not every role, but nobody is suggesting every woman is appropriate for every role and this is no different than not every man is cut out to be a SEAL, but combat is combat.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #74 January 31, 2013 Quote Quote picture more like a 135 pound woman. Or a 150 pound woman. Quote ...suppose you are on patrol with a 135lb woman... Quote I seriously doubt a 95 lb woman... Quote You think some 73 lb woman... Quick! Somebody get her a cheeseburger! When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,445 #75 January 31, 2013 Hi Paul, This is not in response to your post ( although I do like it ), but does anyone know the minimum weight of a male to enlist? Just wondering as Grav has concerns. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
