Denial

[rushmc 23]

The topic of school shootings is on every parent and grandparents' mind.....I would encourage all of you to read this article and share it with other family and friends and talk to your local schools about this subject....Denial is no way to handle this problem.

Our real problem is denial. From Lt. Col. Dave Grossman
By Doug Wyllie

"How many kids have been killed by school fire in all of North America in the past 50 years? Kids killed... school fire... North America... 50 years... How many? Zero. That's right. Not one single kid has been killed by school fire anywhere in North America in the past half a century. Now, how many kids have been killed by school violence?"

So began an extraordinary daylong seminar presented by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, a Pulitzer Prize nominated author, West Point psychology professor, and without a doubt the world's foremost expert on human aggression and violence. The event, hosted by the California Peace Officers Association, was held in the auditorium of a very large community church about 30 miles from San Francisco, and was attended by more than 250 police officers from around the region.

Grossman's talk spanned myriad topics of vital importance to law
enforcement, such as the use of autogenic breathing, surviving gunshot wounds, dealing with survivor guilt following a gun battle, and others. But violence among and against children was how the day began, and so I'll focus on that issue here.

"In 1999," Grossman said, "school violence claimed what at the time was an all time record number of kids' lives. In that year there were 35 dead and a quarter of a million serious injuries due to violence in the school. How many killed by fire that year? Zero. But we hear people say, 'That's the year Columbine happened, that's an anomaly.' Well, in 2004 we had a new all time record - 48 dead in the schools from violence. How many killed by fire that year? Zero. Let's assign some grades. Put your teacher hat on and give out some grades. What kind of grade do you give the firefighter for keeping kids safe? An 'A,' right? Reluctantly, reluctantly, the cops give the firefighters an 'A,' right? Danged firefighters, they sleep 'till they're hungry and eat 'till they're tired. What grade do we get for keeping the kids safe from violence?
Come on, what's our grade? Needs improvement, right?"

Johnny Firefighter, A+ Student "Why can't we be like little Johnny Firefighter?" Grossman asked as he prowled the stage. "He's our A+ student!"

He paused, briefly, and answered with a voice that blew through the hall like thunder, "Denial, denial, denial!"

Grossman commanded, "Look up at the ceiling! See all those sprinklers up there? They're hard to spot - they're painted black - but they're there. While you're looking, look at the material the ceiling is made of. You know that that stuff was selected because it's fire-retardant. Now look over there above the door - you see that fire exit sign? That's not just any fire exit sign - that's a 'battery-backup-when-the-world-ends- it-will-still-be-lit' fire exit sign."

Walking from the stage toward a nearby fire exit and exterior wall,
Grossman slammed the palm of his hand against the wall and exclaimed, "Look at these wall boards! They were chosen because they're what?! Fireproof or fire retardant. There is not one stinking thing in this room that will burn!"

Pointing around the room as he spoke, Grossman continued, "But you've still got those fire sprinklers, those fire exit signs, fire hydrants outside, and fire trucks nearby! Are these fire guys crazy? Are these fire guys paranoid? No! This fire guy is our A+ student! Because this fire guy has redundant, overlapping layers of protection, not a single kid has been killed by school fire in the last 50 years!

"But you try to prepare for violence - the thing much more likely to
kill our kids in schools, the thing hundreds of times more likely to
kill our kids in schools - and people think you're paranoid. They think
you're crazy. ...They're in denial."

Teaching the Teachers

The challenge for law enforcement agencies and officers, then, is to
overcome not only the attacks taking place in schools, but to first
overcome the denial in the minds of mayors, city councils, school
administrators, and parents. Grossman said that agencies and officers, although facing an uphill slog against the denial of the general public, must diligently work toward increasing understanding among the sheep that the wolves are coming for their children. Police officers must train and drill with teachers, not only so responding officers are intimately familiar with the facilities, but so that teachers know what they can do in the event of an attack.

"Come with me to the library at Columbine High School," Grossman said. "The teacher in the library at Columbine High School spent her
professional lifetime preparing for a fire, and we can all agree if
there had been a fire in that library, that teacher would have
instinctively, reflexively known what to do.

"But the thing most likely to kill her kids - the thing hundreds of
times more likely to kill her kids, the teacher didn't have a clue what
to do. She should have put those kids in the librarian's office but she
didn't know that. So she did the worst thing possible - she tried to
secure her kids in an un-securable location. She told the kids to hide
in the library - a library that has plate glass windows for walls. It's
an aquarium, it's a fish bowl. She told the kids to hide in a fishbowl.
What did those killers see? They saw targets. They saw fish in a fish
bowl."

Grossman said that if the school administrators at Columbine had spent a fraction of the money they'd spent preparing for fire doing lockdown drills and talking with local law enforcers about the violent dangers they face, the outcome that day may have been different.

Rhetorically he asked the assembled cops, "If somebody had spent five minutes telling that teacher what to do, do you think lives would have been saved at Columbine?"

Arming Campus Cops is Elementary

"Never call an unarmed man 'security'," Grossman said.

"Call him 'run-like-hell-when-the-man-with-the-gun-shows-up' but never call an unarmed man security.

"Imagine if someone said, 'I want a trained fire professional on site. I
want a fire hat, I want a fire uniform, I want a fire badge. But! No
fire extinguishers in this building. No fire hoses. The hat, the badge,
the uniform - that will keep us safe - but we have no need for fire
extinguishers.' Well, that would be insane. It is equally insane,
delusional, legally liable, to say, 'I want a trained security
professional on site. I want a security hat, I want a security uniform,
and I want a security badge, but I don't want a gun.' It's not the hat,
the uniform, or the badge. It's the tools in the hands of a trained
professional that keeps us safe.

"Our problem is not money," said Grossman. "It is denial."

Grossman said (and most cops agree) that many of the most important things we can do to protect our kids would cost us nothing or next-to-nothing.

Grossman's Five D's

Let's contemplate the following outline and summary of Dave Grossman's "Five D's." While you do, I encourage you to add in the comments area below your suggestions to address, and expand upon, these ideas.

1. Denial - Denial is the enemy and it has no survival value, said
Grossman.

2. Deter - Put police officers in schools, because with just one officer
assigned to a school, the probability of a mass murder in that school
drops to almost zero

3. Detect - We're talking about plain old fashioned police work here.
The ultimate achievement for law enforcement is the crime that didn't happen, so giving teachers and administrators regular access to cops is paramount.

4. Delay - Various simple mechanisms can be used by teachers and cops to put time and distance between the killers and the kids.

a. Ensure that the school/classroom have just a single point of entry.
Simply locking the back door helps create a hard target.

b. Conduct your active shooter drills within (and in partnership with)
the schools in your city so teachers know how to respond, and know what it looks like when you do your response.

5. Destroy - Police officers and agencies should consider the following:

a.) Carry off duty. No one would tell a firefighter who has a fire
extinguisher in his trunk that he's crazy or paranoid.
b.) Equip every cop in America with a patrol rifle. One chief of police,
upon getting rifles for all his officers once said, "If an active killer
strikes in my town, the response time will be measured in feet per
second."
c.) Put smoke grenades in the trunk of every cop car in America. Any
infantryman who needs to attack across open terrain or perform a rescue under fire deploys a smoke grenade. A fire extinguisher will do a decent job in some cases, but a smoke grenade is designed to perform the function.
d.) Have a "go-to-war bag" filled with lots of loaded magazines and
supplies for tactical combat casualty care.
e.) Use helicopters. Somewhere in your county you probably have one or more of the following: medevac, media, private, national guard, coast guard rotors.
f. )Employ the crew-served, continuous-feed, weapon you already have
available to you (a firehouse) by integrating the fire service into your
active shooter training. It is virtually impossible for a killer to put
well-placed shots on target while also being blasted with water at 300 pounds per square inch.
g.) Armed citizens can help. Think United 93. Whatever your personal
take on gun control, it is all but certain that a killer set on killing
is more likely to attack a target where the citizens are unarmed, rather than one where they are likely to encounter an armed citizen response.

Coming Soon: External Threats

Today we must not only prepare for juvenile mass murder, something that had never happened in human history until only recently, but we also must prepare for the external threat. Islamist fanatics have slaughtered children in their own religion - they have killed wantonly, mercilessly, and without regard for repercussion or regret of any kind. What do you think they'd think of killing our kids?

"Eight years ago they came and killed 3,000 of our citizens. Do we know what they're going to do next? No! But one thing they've done in every country they've messed with is killing kids in schools," Grossman said.

The latest al Qaeda charter states that "children are noble targets" and Osama bin Laden himself has said that "Russia is a preview for what we will do to America."

What happened in Russia that we need to be concerned with in this
context? In the town of Beslan on September 1, 2004 - the very day on which children across that country merrily make their return to school after the long summer break - radical Islamist terrorists from Chechnya took more than 1,000 teachers, mothers, and children hostage. When the three-day siege was over, more than 300 hostages had been killed, more than half of whom were children.

"If I could tackle every American and make them read one book to help them understand the terrorist's plan, it would be Terror at Beslan by John Giduck. Beslan was just a dress rehearsal for what they're planning to do to the United States," he said.

Consider this: There are almost a half a million school buses in
America. It would require every enlisted person and every officer in the entire Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine Corps combined to put just one armed guard on every school bus in the country.

As a country and as a culture, the level of protection Americans afford our kids against violence is nothing near what we do to protect them from fire. Grossman is correct: Denial is the enemy. We must prepare for violence like the firefighter prepares for fire. And we must do that today.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Andy9o8 2]

How many separate gun threads per day do you (and 1 or 2 others) plan to start? At some point it goes beyond the obnoxious.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

How many separate gun threads per day do you (and 1 or 2 others) plan to start? At some point it goes beyond the obnoxious.

If I am anoying you

Then I WILL continue

More, many more to come

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[OHCHUTE 0]

I think the reason most attendee at SHOT aren't discussing the matter is that Gov't will pass whatever rules they think they should pass. The good news is that they're mostly promoting passing laws that are already on the books which is only natural as there is little else they can do as there's so many restrictions already. For instance AR's with grenade launcher and flash suppressor and folding stocks in some states are alread banned as well as street sweepers etc. With the cost of ammo, I'm sure people will give up 30 rounders pretty easy if they are even loaded to capacity. The glock 17 rounders are even difficult to load to cap without using a mag loader et. I think law makers are at a dead end in knowing you can't legislate against someone going nuts. So talking about guns any more is basically a waste of time. IMHO. Especially with idiots who never held a gun and is scared to death of guns, not knowing a thing about our SPORT or HOBBIE.

If we could only take their poodles and restrict walking their dog to their own property, not the neighborhood! That will get em'

[rushmc 23]

Quote

I think the reason most attendee at SHOT aren't discussing the matter is that Gov't will pass whatever rules they think they should pass. The good news is that they're mostly promoting passing laws that are already on the books which is only natural as there is little else they can do as there's so many restrictions already. For instance AR's with grenade launcher and flash suppressor and folding stocks in some states are alread banned as well as street sweepers etc. With the cost of ammo, I'm sure people will give up 30 rounders pretty easy if they are even loaded to capacity. The glock 17 rounders are even difficult to load to cap without using a mag loader et. I think law makers are at a dead end in knowing you can't legislate against someone going nuts. So talking about guns any more is basically a waste of time. IMHO. Especially with idiots who never held a gun and is scared to death of guns, not knowing a thing about our SPORT or HOBBIE.

If we could only take their poodles and restrict walking their dog to their own property, not the neighborhood! That will get em'

The one I heard (not yet verified) is an order that says if anyone in your home has any mental issues (including depression) then any guns in the home must be removed/turned in. There is a requirment that Dr's will be forced to report or they will be charged with a fellony.

This will work like it does for comercial pilots in as much as the pilots will try and live with the condition they have instead of seeking help. If they go in, they loose the ability to fly

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

How many separate gun threads per day do you (and 1 or 2 others) plan to start? At some point it goes beyond the obnoxious.

Also
You dont have to come here

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

How many separate gun threads per day do you (and 1 or 2 others) plan to start? At some point it goes beyond the obnoxious.

I like gun threads. If you find them obnoxious, then I would suggest not reading them.

[kallend 2,150]

The only denial I see is from people like YOU who either deny that there's a problem with gun violence in the USA, or who deny that there's anything to be done about gun violence, or both.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[masterrig 1]

I like gun threads too... as long as there is some good 'sense' involved. Leave-out the 'knee-jerk' and 'Chicken Little' responses. I can appreciate good, sound information and logical discussion in regard to guns.


Chuck

[killler 2]

I have not seen one person say that there is NO gun violence or that there is nothing that can be done... All I have seen is people refusing to give up their right to keep and bear arm as written in the 2nd amendment..

But, first we need to start enforcing the laws on the books and stop passing more feel good laws that don't do anything other then stop the law abiding person from enjoying the rights of the 2nd amendment...

But all the left see's and wants is to remove guns, ALL GUNS from the other side... It will never happen..

I think a great start would be to reopen all the nut houses and get the nutters off the streets... Then stop arresting and filling are jails with people that smoke weed and start putting gang bangers and the like away for a long... TIME...

Killler...

[lawrocket 3]

Grossman was an instructor of mine when I was at Ft. Lewis. An interesting guy and a pretty riveting guy in person, and I believe he must be reading what I am writing . It’s weird – I’ve been having discussions with other friends and specifically mentioned fire drills and that having a weapon is like having a fire extinguisher. Within a couple of hours of the incident I wrote about denial. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4413018#4413018

I’ve put on here that I think it’s time to just accept what is happening and take steps not just to prevent but to mitigate. Grossman has put more of an academic sort of a mind to it (the “Five Ds”). I particularly like how he puts out there that an interdisciplinary approach is needed. (I actually somewhat disagree with “locking the back door.” Having a back door that can’t be opened from the outside but can be easily opened inside is, I think, a better option). Use firefighters. Teachers. Police.

Mostly, however, I am heartened that open discussion is actually taking place. It’s not reached the mainstream but is occurring in a more grassroots way. The message is getting out there. And sure, people will read, “he’s calling for smoke grenades?” Yep. He’s arguing that anything that will increase survivability should be done.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

The only denial I see is from people like YOU who either deny that there's a problem with gun violence in the USA, or who deny that there's anything to be done about gun violence, or both.

If you see that in this post

You really are in denial

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Grossman was an instructor of mine when I was at Ft. Lewis. An interesting guy and a pretty riveting guy in person, and I believe he must be reading what I am writing . It’s weird – I’ve been having discussions with other friends and specifically mentioned fire drills and that having a weapon is like having a fire extinguisher. Within a couple of hours of the incident I wrote about denial. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4413018#4413018

I’ve put on here that I think it’s time to just accept what is happening and take steps not just to prevent but to mitigate. Grossman has put more of an academic sort of a mind to it (the “Five Ds”). I particularly like how he puts out there that an interdisciplinary approach is needed. (I actually somewhat disagree with “locking the back door.” Having a back door that can’t be opened from the outside but can be easily opened inside is, I think, a better option). Use firefighters. Teachers. Police.

Mostly, however, I am heartened that open discussion is actually taking place. It’s not reached the mainstream but is occurring in a more grassroots way. The message is getting out there. And sure, people will read, “he’s calling for smoke grenades?” Yep. He’s arguing that anything that will increase survivability should be done.

+1

The other thing that needs to come out is what I heard in a report yesterday

That aprox 50% of public schools today already have armed security

Did you know this?

I didnt

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[regulator 0]

Equip every cop in America with a patrol rifle. One chief of police,
upon getting rifles for all his officers once said, "If an active killer
strikes in my town, the response time will be measured in feet per
second."


As I said before my father works for the BCSO and not only reloads for patrolmen, he runs the rifle range. I inherited his patrol M1 carbine after they upgraded to AR's.

[regulator 0]

Houston has had their own school district PD for close to 20 years now...they all carry.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Houston has had their own school district PD for close to 20 years now...they all carry.

The Sandy Hook shooting did what the admin could not do with Fast and Furious

Now they would keep schools gun free zones so they can ban even more

This has NOTHING to do with public and school safety

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

The only denial I see is from people like YOU who either deny that there's a problem with gun violence in the USA, or who deny that there's anything to be done about gun violence, or both.

What was your solution again? You know, the one that doesn't violate the Constitution or BOR? I must have missed it.

[GeorgiaDon 380]

Quote

I’ve put on here that I think it’s time to just accept what is happening and take steps not just to prevent but to mitigate. Grossman has put more of an academic sort of a mind to it (the “Five Ds”). I particularly like how he puts out there that an interdisciplinary approach is needed.

Well sure an interdisciplinary approach is needed, but it seems to me that all sides to this debate are willing to consider only a few possibilities that don't step on their own toes; nobody is really ready to entertain an "interdisciplinary approach".

Fire prevention involves measures to reduce the likelihood of fires starting in the first place, measures such as fire-retardant materials to limit the spread of the fire, and regularly practiced escape procedures to get people out of harms way when a fire does occur. Yet we hear that limiting access to guns by the mentally ill, absent a direct and very specific threat, is a violation of their constitutional rights. [For example, "sometimes I get so mad I feel like killing everybody" is not a specific threat, but "I got me an AR15 and a ticket to the movies tonight, it'll be like shooting fish in a barrel" might possibly be specific enough to warrant action.] Similarly any discussion of limiting firepower by any measure whatsoever is off the table. How does this constitute an "interdisciplinary approach"? Isn't it like saying that avoiding schools fires is an important goal, but we can't do anything about the shoddy electrician who wires up a fire trap, and we can't consider flammability when selecting building materials?

So what are we offered as a solution? Fire extinguishers in every classroom (= armed teachers), in every hallway and building entrance (= armed security guards), build and equip a fire station next to every school (= police departments specifically for each school district), and frequent drills (necessary, but also great for building a sense of paranoia).

Maybe the constitution does create a situation where we just have to live with bad wiring and fire-starter logs for building materials, and the best we can do is to put a fire extinguisher in every classroom, build a fire station next to every school, and practice fire escape drills constantly. But don't tell me that that is an "interdisciplinary approach".

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)