Cost per Kw hour

[Airgump 1]

So, when the wind stops blowing and the sun goes down, i guess the liberals are stuck with that evil natural gas to AC or heat the caves they live in and charge those insanely expensive electric cars they want all of us to be forced to purchase.

Makes me wonder just how much the cost per Kw stacks up between the two in real dollars, and in the environmental carnage to the birds that the tree huggers are so eager to protect from evil oil. What use is a tree if there aren't any birds to roost in and sing from it?

We already are finding out more and more how everybody deserves their fair shot under this current administration. If one bird dies on an oil field location it's several thousand dollars worth of fines, but if hundreds upon thousands die to wind turbines it's utterly ignored by those same zealots.

Snapped the attached pic on a windless day just before sunset. All those "green, bird killers" sitting idle while a gas well is being fractured in the center of large wind farm in western Oklahoma.

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-08-28/national/35269438_1_wind-turbines-wind-farms-wind-power

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/17/us-wind-farms-under-fire-for-bird-kills/

Save an Eagle, dismantle the killer insanely expensive wind farms while we still have a few birds left!

[billvon 3,120]

>So, when the wind stops blowing and the sun goes down, i guess the liberals are stuck
>with that evil natural gas to AC or heat the caves they live in and charge those
>insanely expensive electric cars they want all of us to be forced to purchase.

Nope, but thanks for the thought!

>Makes me wonder just how much the cost per Kw stacks up between the two in real
>dollars, and in the environmental carnage to the birds that the tree huggers are so
>eager to protect from evil oil. What use is a tree if there aren't any birds to roost in
>and sing from it?

Careful! Trees kill a lot more birds than wind farms. Mocking things you don't understand can be tricky, eh?

[turtlespeed 226]

Quote

>So, when the wind stops blowing and the sun goes down, i guess the liberals are stuck
>with that evil natural gas to AC or heat the caves they live in and charge those
>insanely expensive electric cars they want all of us to be forced to purchase.

Nope, but thanks for the thought!

>Makes me wonder just how much the cost per Kw stacks up between the two in real
>dollars, and in the environmental carnage to the birds that the tree huggers are so
>eager to protect from evil oil. What use is a tree if there aren't any birds to roost in
>and sing from it?

Careful! Trees kill a lot more birds than wind farms. Mocking things you don't understand can be tricky, eh?

How many are acceptably killed by Wind Farms vs Acceptably killed by an oil rig?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[regulator 0]

i guess the liberals are stuck with that evil natural gas to AC or heat the caves they live in and charge those insanely expensive electric cars they want all of us to be forced to purchase.

when you said that I instantly thought of this...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FAI_-woNh4

[billvon 3,120]

>How many are acceptably killed by Wind Farms vs Acceptably killed by an oil rig?

Well, we are OK with around 20,000 Americans killed every year via coal power. Presumably you think a bird is worth less than a person, so that number would be somewhere north of 20,000.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

>So, when the wind stops blowing and the sun goes down, i guess the liberals are stuck
>with that evil natural gas to AC or heat the caves they live in and charge those
>insanely expensive electric cars they want all of us to be forced to purchase.

Nope, but thanks for the thought!

>Makes me wonder just how much the cost per Kw stacks up between the two in real
>dollars, and in the environmental carnage to the birds that the tree huggers are so
>eager to protect from evil oil. What use is a tree if there aren't any birds to roost in
>and sing from it?

Careful! Trees kill a lot more birds than wind farms. Mocking things you don't understand can be tricky, eh?

Ya, trees are killers

But it does not take twice the tree population to keep the lights on,

But it does take double the generation construction on line when wind is forced into the equation

Again, for every meg of wind generation, there needs to be a meg of coal, oil, hydro or nuc generation backing it up

Well, only if you do not want outages

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

>How many are acceptably killed by Wind Farms vs Acceptably killed by an oil rig?

Well, we are OK with around 20,000 Americans killed every year via coal power. Presumably you think a bird is worth less than a person, so that number would be somewhere north of 20,000.

Hmmm

It seems birds are worth more than a human when it comes to harvesting wood

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

Quote

>How many are acceptably killed by Wind Farms vs Acceptably killed by an oil rig?

Well, we are OK with around 20,000 Americans killed every year via coal power. Presumably you think a bird is worth less than a person, so that number would be somewhere north of 20,000.

Hmmm

It seems birds are worth more than a human when it comes to harvesting wood

Marc, why not mention the canaries in the mines too- just as relevant.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[brenthutch 444]

Quote

i guess the liberals are stuck with that evil natural gas to AC or heat the caves they live in and charge those insanely expensive electric cars they want all of us to be forced to purchase.

when you said that I instantly thought of this...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FAI_-woNh4

Very funny until you realize they want everyone to comply.

[billvon 3,120]

>It seems birds are worth more than a human when it comes to harvesting wood

Interesting that you think so.

[Airgump 1]

Quote

Careful! Trees kill a lot more birds than wind farms. Mocking things you don't understand can be tricky, eh?

Bill, care to show proof of senseless killing of birds by trees?

The bunk you speak of couldn't, by chance, be tired to Leroy the evil bird killer who's picture is attached?

[Airgump 1]

Quote

>It seems birds are worth more than a human when it comes to harvesting wood

Interesting that you think so.

Hmmmmm, the spotted owl and the death of the timber industry easily comes to mind when knee jerk reactions win the day.

[JerryBaumchen 1,468]

Hi Air,

Quote

the spotted owl and the death of the timber industry

I live in Portland, OR and the timber industry is front and center is this area.

I assure that (IMO) the Spotted Owl was not the death of the timber industry. Did it contribute to it; yes, it did.

Other factors are what did the timber industry in.

JerryBaumchen

[billvon 3,120]

>Bill, care to show proof of senseless killing of birds by trees?

This one was pretty senseless:

==========================
Why Are Birds Falling From the Sky?
The ground truth about this week's bird deaths in Arkansas and elsewhere.
National Geographic News
Published January 6, 2011

A mysterious rain of thousands of dead birds darkened New Year's Eve in Arkansas, and this week similar reports streamed in from Louisiana, Sweden, and elsewhere.

But the in-air bird deaths aren't due to some apocalyptic plague or insidious experiment—they happen all the time, scientists say. The recent buzz, it seems, was mainly hatched by media hype.

At any given time there are "at least ten billion birds in North America ... and there could be as much as 20 billion—and almost half die each year due to natural causes," said ornithologist Greg Butcher, director of bird conservation for the National Audubon Society in Washington, D.C.

But what causes dead birds to fall from the sky en masse? The Arkansas case points to two common culprits: loud noises and crashes.

Beginning at roughly 11:30 p.m. on New Year's Eve Arkansas wildlife officers started hearing reports of birds falling from the sky in a square-mile area of the city of Beebe. Officials estimate that up to 5,000 red-winged blackbirds, European starlings, common grackles, and brown-headed cowbirds fell before midnight.

Results from preliminary testing released Wednesday by the National Wildlife Health Center in Madison, Wisconsin, show the birds died from blunt-force trauma, supporting preliminary findings released by the Arkansas Livestock and Poultry Commission on Monday.

"They collided with cars, trees, buildings, and other stationary objects," said ornithologist Karen Rowe of the Arkansas Game and Fish Commission.

"Right before they began to fall, it appears that really loud booms from professional-grade fireworks—10 to 12 of them, a few seconds apart—were reported in the general vicinity of a roost of the birds, flushing them out," Rowe said.

"There were other, legal fireworks set off at the same time that might have then forced the birds to fly lower than they normally do, below treetop level, and [these] birds have very poor night vision and do not typically fly at night."

The dead birds found in Arkansas are of species that normally congregate in large groups in fall or winter. "The record I've heard is 23 million birds in one roost," Audubon's Butcher said.

"In that context, 5,000 birds dying is a fairly small amount."
======================================

How can it be? Not a windmill in sight, and yet THOUSANDS of BIRDS DIED! Inconceivable!

[billvon 3,120]

>Hmmmmm, the spotted owl and the death of the timber industry

1) That wasn't the cause of the "death of the timber industry"
2) There is still a timber industry in any case and
3) are you really equating the slowdown of an industry to the death of human beings?

In that case, I can't believe you want to kill wind industry workers!

[skypuppy 1]

Quote

>Bill, care to show proof of senseless killing of birds by trees?

This one was pretty senseless:

==========================
Why Are Birds Falling From the Sky?
The ground truth about this week's bird deaths in Arkansas and elsewhere.
National Geographic News
Published January 6, 2011

A mysterious rain of thousands of dead birds darkened New Year's Eve in Arkansas, and this week similar reports streamed in from Louisiana, Sweden, and elsewhere.

But the in-air bird deaths aren't due to some apocalyptic plague or insidious experiment—they happen all the time, scientists say. The recent buzz, it seems, was mainly hatched by media hype.

At any given time there are "at least ten billion birds in North America ... and there could be as much as 20 billion—and almost half die each year due to natural causes," said ornithologist Greg Butcher, director of bird conservation for the National Audubon Society in Washington, D.C.

But what causes dead birds to fall from the sky en masse? The Arkansas case points to two common culprits: loud noises and crashes.

Beginning at roughly 11:30 p.m. on New Year's Eve Arkansas wildlife officers started hearing reports of birds falling from the sky in a square-mile area of the city of Beebe. Officials estimate that up to 5,000 red-winged blackbirds, European starlings, common grackles, and brown-headed cowbirds fell before midnight.

Results from preliminary testing released Wednesday by the National Wildlife Health Center in Madison, Wisconsin, show the birds died from blunt-force trauma, supporting preliminary findings released by the Arkansas Livestock and Poultry Commission on Monday.

"They collided with cars, trees, buildings, and other stationary objects," said ornithologist Karen Rowe of the Arkansas Game and Fish Commission.

"Right before they began to fall, it appears that really loud booms from professional-grade fireworks—10 to 12 of them, a few seconds apart—were reported in the general vicinity of a roost of the birds, flushing them out," Rowe said.

"There were other, legal fireworks set off at the same time that might have then forced the birds to fly lower than they normally do, below treetop level, and [these] birds have very poor night vision and do not typically fly at night."

The dead birds found in Arkansas are of species that normally congregate in large groups in fall or winter. "The record I've heard is 23 million birds in one roost," Audubon's Butcher said.

"In that context, 5,000 birds dying is a fairly small amount."
======================================

How can it be? Not a windmill in sight, and yet THOUSANDS of BIRDS DIED! Inconceivable!

hmm. in that case sounds to me like it was the fireworks that caused the deaths, not the trees.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[billvon 3,120]

>hmm. in that case sounds to me like it was the fireworks that caused the deaths, not the trees.

Fair enough! So it's the wind that causes bird deaths near windmills, not the windmills themselves.

Ban wind, perhaps?

[skypuppy 1]

Quote

>hmm. in that case sounds to me like it was the fireworks that caused the deaths, not the trees.

Fair enough! So it's the wind that causes bird deaths near windmills, not the windmills themselves.

Ban wind, perhaps?

you have a really weird way of looking at things....

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

>hmm. in that case sounds to me like it was the fireworks that caused the deaths, not the trees.

Fair enough! So it's the wind that causes bird deaths near windmills, not the windmills themselves.

Ban wind, perhaps?

you have a really weird way of looking at things....

The point of his original post was to divert from the fact that wind power effectivly doubles the construction cost of generation. Because for every meg of wind generation constructed, a meg of coal, hydro, oil or nuke power must sit in reserve for the windless days

At best wind has a 40% availability rate so you do the math

Now we can go back to dead birds

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Airgump 1]

Quote

The point of his original post was to divert from the fact that wind power effectivly doubles the construction cost of generation. Because for every meg of wind generation constructed, a meg of coal, hydro, oil or nuke power must sit in reserve for the windless days

At best wind has a 40% availability rate so you do the math

Now we can go back to dead birds

Additionally, if one form of energy is charged "x" amount of fines for "y" amount of damage, in this case bird kills, then the formula should be spread equally across the board.

The current double standard of this administration does not reflect their "everyone deserves a fair shot" mantra.

CA is a good example of the ostrich with it's head in the hole while the rest of the body remains in harm's way. They preached boycotting AZ over their passage of tougher immigration laws oblivious of the amount of their electrical power that is generated in AZ to power their perfect little world.

Wonder how many wind turbines and solar panels it takes to generate the power for Qualcom to manufacture their products? (Most likely they are made in China using coal fired power plants)

How much pollution does the electronics and plastics industries generate pushing this so called green technology?

[Fast 0]

Quote

Ya, trees are killers

But it does not take twice the tree population to keep the lights on,

But it does take double the generation construction on line when wind is forced into the equation

Again, for every meg of wind generation, there needs to be a meg of coal, oil, hydro or nuc generation backing it up

Well, only if you do not want outages

Alternative energy strategy is a long term investment in societal progress. I think that it would be hard for anyone to argue against the fact that in the short term, it is cheaper and easier to use some of the mentioned forms of traditional power generation.

The benefit comes from the fact that research on these technologies is going to make long term sense. We can't abandon that kind of progress.

Long ago someone said something akin to "why do we need airplanes, trains are a perfectly functional form of travel." I am glad they did because I like jumping out of them. Though these days I often find myself wishing that along the line someone would have said "planes are nice cause they are quick, but we need to maintain and expand our train infrastructure" because the economy there makes a lot of sense and would save us a lot of money that currently goes to oil companies.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[billvon 3,120]

>Wonder how many wind turbines and solar panels it takes to generate the power for
>Qualcom to manufacture their products? (Most likely they are made in China using coal
>fired power plants)

We don't make consumer electronics. We make the IC's that go in them. Most of our facilities are in the US, and most of the facilities for the IC manufacturers we use are in New York, Singapore and Germany. Germany is the biggest one.

[billeisele 130]

looks like everyone is enjoying another energy discussion, sorry I'm late

when the wind stops and the sun goes away the folks expect the good 'ole power company to supply all the kWhs they need, of course they don't want to pay the full price for for this, they also want rebates and subsidies to install the green stuff, those costs are passed back to all consumers (shocking)

just to be fair, there are subsidies on the other side also, how these two compare to each other is an interesting question

one of my regular highlights is hearing a greenie exclaim, "the power company should pay me the full avoided cost for the power I produce" (they read about the term "avoided cost" and are so proud that they speak the lingo)

when I ask them to educate me on the components of avoided cost and explain which components are actually being avoided their face goes blank, I call this clueless ignorance

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[cvfd1399 0]

When the sun goes away in 5 billion years I'm sure they will have figured it out by then right? Probably not we will still be kicking the can down fiscal cliff road not worrying about energy

Ain't nobody got time for that!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cT_Ulmcrys

[rushmc 23]

Quote

looks like everyone is enjoying another energy discussion, sorry I'm late

when the wind stops and the sun goes away the folks expect the good 'ole power company to supply all the kWhs they need, of course they don't want to pay the full price for for this, they also want rebates and subsidies to install the green stuff, those costs are passed back to all consumers (shocking)

just to be fair, there are subsidies on the other side also, how these two compare to each other is an interesting question

one of my regular highlights is hearing a greenie exclaim, "the power company should pay me the full avoided cost for the power I produce" (they read about the term "avoided cost" and are so proud that they speak the lingo)

when I ask them to educate me on the components of avoided cost and explain which components are actually being avoided their face goes blank, I call this clueless ignorance

Greenies got their wish

12 plus billion in the cliff bill for wind

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln