kallend 2,146 #1 December 22, 2012 1. career criminals don't go around shooting up schools, movie theaters and shopping malls. The issue is keeping CRAZY people from doing this. Going on about how criminals will always find a way to get a gun is IRRELEVANT. 2. Gang on gang shootings account for a very large fraction of US gun homicides. 3. If you aren't a gang member you are far more likely to be shot by a family member, friend or someone you know than by an intruder.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #2 December 22, 2012 Great, let's pass a law that bans crazy people from purchasing or stealing guns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #3 December 22, 2012 Bishboshbash.. Job done!When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #4 December 22, 2012 Quote Bishboshbash.. Job done! That was easy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #5 December 22, 2012 QuoteGreat, let's pass a law that bans crazy people from purchasing or stealing guns. I believe we have one. It's just toothless courtesy of the gun lobby and people like you.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blueblur 0 #6 December 22, 2012 Crazy/disturbed/mentally imbalanced people will always find a way. If someone is hell-bent on achieving a particular outcome, it generally happens, doesn't matter what the plan is (killing people, running a marathon, losing weight...). Are you making the point that it's not the guns, it's the crazy people getting guns or that we don't know these people are actually crazy? Because point 1 is self-explanatory, point 2 is already a law if they're diagnosed (wife's cousin is diagnosed bi-polar and cannot legally possess a gun), but point 3 seems to be the crux of the argument.In every man's life he will be allotted one good woman and one good dog. That's all you get, so appreciate them while the time you have with them lasts. - RiggerLee Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #7 December 23, 2012 http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/history-of-gun-control-is-cautionary-tale-for-those-who-want-more-regulations/2012/12/22/73a07294-4afc-11e2-a6a6-aabac85e8036_print.html"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BartsDaddy 7 #8 December 23, 2012 QuoteQuoteGreat, let's pass a law that bans crazy people from purchasing or stealing guns. I believe we have one. It's just toothless courtesy of the gun lobby and people like you. No it's toothless because of our justice system. I used to have a friend that did six months in clark county jail. His crime was stealing a firearm from another friend transporting it across state lines and then shooting a liqour store clerk during an armed robbery. And he only got six months. That is our justice system letting us down. They do not prosecute crimes to the extent they should they would rather plea bargin it down to keep there conviction rate up. So what if somebody that was facing 10 to20 years goes free in 6 months they got a conviction thats what counts to them. Enforce the laws we have on the books now and forget about new ones. Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #9 December 23, 2012 QuoteCrazy/disturbed/mentally imbalanced people will always find a way. If someone is hell-bent on achieving a particular outcome, it generally happens, doesn't matter what the plan is (killing people, running a marathon, losing weight...). Are you making the point that it's not the guns, it's the crazy people getting guns or that we don't know these people are actually crazy? Because point 1 is self-explanatory, point 2 is already a law if they're diagnosed (wife's cousin is diagnosed bi-polar and cannot legally possess a gun), but point 3 seems to be the crux of the argument. I agree that the 3rd point is the toughest one to address. We do need to keep dangerous weapons out of the hands of "crazies". But Lanza was known to be out of balance. His mother knew it and still he was able to get his hands on her weapons. It could be said that, as his mother and as an owner of guns, she should have ensured they were not accessible to him in any way, including theft. So, maybe some negligence on her part? But back to the 3rd point. How do we decide who is or is not nuts? Who decides? Who decides who decides!? I'm sure that there are some who would deem a person "crazy" simply for seeking to acquire a gun. How would the evaluator be evaluated? When do we decide? Maybe a mental health evaluation is scheduled when an application is made for acquiring a firearm (from any source)? What results of such an evaluation would disqualify an applicant? How about "extreme" conservative or progressive views? How about someone who is exercising his 1st Amendment rights to free speech or religious freedom? Also, if someone who "passes" a psychological evaluation and ultimately gets his gun and then, at some future time, goes off the rails and commits mass murder, who is responsible? The evaluator? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
texascrw 1 #10 December 23, 2012 I believe you stopped short on handing out credit for weakening the laws keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill. You forgot the ACLU, the feds(HIPA) and whiney little leftist liberals (like you) that are more concerned with the rights of crazy people than their victims. I doubt you will find many gun rights groups that are interested in seeing nut jobs have firearms. It is against their best interest. Every time someone commits one of these horrible crimes, gun owners have to contend with jackals like Schumer and Feinstein, who would cheerfully kick the victims corpses out of the way to get in front of a camera to further their agenda. Gun owners are the ones that will have to suffer the effects of any new law, not the criminals or crazies. So why would anyone in their right mind think that gun owners would want crazy people to have guns? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfzombie 3 #11 December 23, 2012 i'm thinking after reading the article, that it's gonna be ok. it says that gun violence was down to pre 1960 levels. sounds great to me and that is 8 years after the brady bill expired. i hate that anything happened, i have a 4th grader, scared to death sometimes. taken in context, it's not that bad. taking all the schools and all the days of non-incidents, we have a pretty good record. not perfect, still needs work, but not too bad.http://kitswv.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #12 December 23, 2012 QuoteQuoteGreat, let's pass a law that bans crazy people from purchasing or stealing guns. I believe we have one. It's just toothless courtesy of the gun lobby and people like you. Whose job is it to enforce the laws? Here's a hint: it's not the NRA. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #13 December 23, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteGreat, let's pass a law that bans crazy people from purchasing or stealing guns. I believe we have one. It's just toothless courtesy of the gun lobby and people like you. Whose job is it to enforce the laws? Here's a hint: it's not the NRA. The law is toothless, and was deliberately made toothless courtesy of the gun lobby and people like you.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #14 December 23, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteGreat, let's pass a law that bans crazy people from purchasing or stealing guns. I believe we have one. It's just toothless courtesy of the gun lobby and people like you. Whose job is it to enforce the laws? Here's a hint: it's not the NRA. The law is toothless, and was deliberately made toothless courtesy of the gun lobby and people like you. Explain how. (here comes the wriggle) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #15 December 23, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteGreat, let's pass a law that bans crazy people from purchasing or stealing guns. I believe we have one. It's just toothless courtesy of the gun lobby and people like you. Whose job is it to enforce the laws? Here's a hint: it's not the NRA. The law is toothless, and was deliberately made toothless courtesy of the gun lobby and people like you. Explain how. (here comes the wriggle) Is the NICS check required of all transfers? Are the data kept in a database for future reference? Did the gun lobby oppose the bill to require background checks of private sales at gun shows in Minnesota? Here's a hint.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #16 December 23, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteGreat, let's pass a law that bans crazy people from purchasing or stealing guns. I believe we have one. It's just toothless courtesy of the gun lobby and people like you. Whose job is it to enforce the laws? Here's a hint: it's not the NRA. The law is toothless, and was deliberately made toothless courtesy of the gun lobby and people like you. Explain how. (here comes the wriggle) Is the NICS check required of all transfers? Are the data kept in a database for future reference? How many recent shootings could have been prevented? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #17 December 23, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteGreat, let's pass a law that bans crazy people from purchasing or stealing guns. I believe we have one. It's just toothless courtesy of the gun lobby and people like you. Whose job is it to enforce the laws? Here's a hint: it's not the NRA. The law is toothless, and was deliberately made toothless courtesy of the gun lobby and people like you. Explain how. (here comes the wriggle) Is the NICS check required of all transfers? Are the data kept in a database for future reference? How many recent shootings could have been prevented? Who's wriggling now?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #18 December 23, 2012 Quote....... The law is toothless, and was deliberately made toothless courtesy of the gun lobby and people like you. How did the law fail in the Sandy Hook case? Mom bought the guns legally. Lanza was crazy. Did the law fail to address the fact that there was a crazy person in the household? Should she have been denied the right to acquire a firearm because her crazy son lived with her? Should the law have required that she prove the guns would be secure? Not being contentious, but were things like these deliberately opposed by the gun lobby? Just trying to understand where you think a breakdown may have been in the law. How about other cases where the shooter was not previously known to be "crazy", but also did not own the firearms himself? What specific points should be written into a non-toothless law? What specific provisions were included or not included because of the "gun lobby". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #19 December 23, 2012 Quotecareer criminals don't go around shooting up schools, movie theaters and shopping malls. The issue is keeping CRAZY people from doing this. Short of creating an extreme government surveillance society (which I believe most people don't want), there is no simple solution to stop the crazies from killing. The world has changed, the family unit is becoming less and less relevant, and every new generation has less and less respect. These days people seek instant internet "look at me, I am special" fame. Some people choose to be silly with their stupid stunts while others choose a more sinister result. But there are some small steps that should be taken. First off if anyone ever makes any sort of threat, it should not be ignored. Just this week a teenaged girl in Mesa AZ and a teenaged boy in Ponoka Alberta (separate incidents) made threats on the internet about shooting up their schools and rightfully they were both paid a visit before anything could happen. But another thing we should be doing is not publishing the names of the shooters. I am sure it will not solve all threats, but in many instances these people are trying to write themselves into the history books by besting the last horrific mass shooting by obtaining an even higher kill count. Of course the consensus mainstream media absolutely loves these sorts of events, so naturally the media won't follow this common sense of not publishing the names. The media are all too willing throw their own mothers into shark infested waters and chum the water to pursue their "this is news" agenda. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #20 December 23, 2012 Quote Quote ....... The law is toothless, and was deliberately made toothless courtesy of the gun lobby and people like you. How did the law fail in the Sandy Hook case? Mom bought the guns legally. Lanza was crazy. Did the law fail to address the fact that there was a crazy person in the household? Should she have been denied the right to acquire a firearm because her crazy son lived with her? Should the law have required that she prove the guns would be secure? Not being contentious, but were things like these deliberately opposed by the gun lobby? Just trying to understand where you think a breakdown may have been in the law. How about other cases where the shooter was not previously known to be "crazy", but also did not own the firearms himself? What specific points should be written into a non-toothless law? What specific provisions were included or not included because of the "gun lobby". Don't get in his way when he begins to wriggle. First thing he does is accuse you of exactly what he's doing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,594 #21 December 23, 2012 Quote I doubt you will find many gun rights groups that are interested in seeing nut jobs have firearms. Really? That's the line you're taking? Then I'm sure you'll have no problems showing where elements of the pro gun lobby have pushed for heavier restrictions on access to guns by those with mental issues. Quote So why would anyone in their right mind think that gun owners would want crazy people to have guns? By listening to what they say.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #22 December 23, 2012 QuoteQuote I doubt you will find many gun rights groups that are interested in seeing nut jobs have firearms. Really? That's the line you're taking? Then I'm sure you'll have no problems showing where elements of the pro gun lobby have pushed for heavier restrictions on access to guns by those with mental issues. Quote So why would anyone in their right mind think that gun owners would want crazy people to have guns? By listening to what they say. Personally, I have no problem with writing all kinds of toothy laws to keep crazy people from getting guns. But first I want to see a very specific definition of what exactly makes a person too crazy to have a gun and specifically how that determination is made and by whom. For example, if I were the determiner, I might start by issuing a blanket denial to all of the crazy lefties in the country. So I likely wouldn't get the job. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #23 December 23, 2012 QuoteQuote I doubt you will find many gun rights groups that are interested in seeing nut jobs have firearms. Really? That's the line you're taking? Then I'm sure you'll have no problems showing where elements of the pro gun lobby have pushed for heavier restrictions on access to guns by those with mental issues. Quote So why would anyone in their right mind think that gun owners would want crazy people to have guns? By listening to what they say. QuoteThe truth is that our society is populated by an unknown number of genuine monsters — people so deranged, so evil, so possessed by voices and driven by demons that no sane person can possibly ever comprehend them. They walk among us every day. And does anybody really believe that the next Adam Lanza isn't planning his attack on a school he's already identified at this very moment? How many more copycats are waiting in the wings for their moment of fame — from a national media machine that rewards them with the wall-to-wall attention and sense of identity that they crave — while provoking others to try to make their mark? A dozen more killers? A hundred? More? How can we possibly even guess how many, given our nation's refusal to create an active national database of the mentally ill? -Wayne LaPierrie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #24 December 23, 2012 Quoteevery new generation has less and less respect. Egads, I wish people would stop using that tired, old cliche; it adds no value to a discussion. And it's thousands of years old, you know. For example: "Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.” Plato, ca. +/- 340 B.C. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pincheck 0 #25 December 23, 2012 Yes that's True mate . To be honest i feel really sorry for Americans and people living there. A society that holds its self as a foremost and civilised society but fails to deal with the issue in a constructive and decisive way ! . The reason for my Pity is the fact The majority can or will not or are able to walk about Without the Deepest Fear, that they need a Firearm for protection. Its a sad indictment of the way America is heading. The response from the NRA was typical and is of no surprise to people outside the states after Sandy Hook, most don't expect anything to change up till the next mass shooting . Some one mentioned that he didn't buy the firearm, true he did not. He stole them from his mother and killed her with them . I would guess a fair number of illegal guns kicking about where stolen from registered owners. Everyone keeps harping on about the 2nd amendment, please grow up. Laws from that time may have been appropriate then but not Know. As societies change then the laws need updating to match the current issues that society faces. When it was developed i doubt that single shot flintlock was as much a problem as today's Guns. For some reason god only Knows, Americans have a chip on their shoulder about changes for the better of all than just the few !. Climb out of the dark ages, as the guns in use are more lethal.So your laws need updating to match current events. Would a complete ban work ! who knows as it will not happen, it may be a case that you have went to far down that road to ban outright. Tighter control for carrying and storage ? possibly better background checks maybe. Some people due to the nature of the countryside have a legitimate claim to carry hunting rifles like Farmers, or people living in remote areas, that I can understand. This does not effect me as i do not live in the states this is just my views. As i say I feel sorrow for what Happened at Sandy Hook. Some of the rhetoric is of no surprise and quite frankly pathetic from educated people. After Sandy hook and Americans should be ashamed of it. I don't come in here Often as the Bile is a bit to much for me to stomach Best of luck to the American people, i really hope you come up with a answer to the problem. Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
