Does It Make Sense...???

[jimmytavino 16]

.... to consider this approach, aimed toward School Security ?

Choose a half Dozen Key Staff Persons.
Train them in the proper and safe use of a medium level handgun. Then place identical models into discreet lock boxes at 4 or 5 key locations in the building. Have the boxes open to a 2 or 3 digit push button code.
With training and practical rehearsals and an annual review of technique Maybe one of these people could squelch the attack, at it's start.

Do NOT sell short the smiling secretary or the easy going and personable assistant principal or guidence counselor, just by virtue of her gender..!! Many such people have the heart of a Lion and the maternal protective instincts of a Grizzly Bear...Perhaps there are staff people who ALready HAVE some savvy with a gun.

Damn !! if these staff people are gonna be Killed ANYWay, trying "to reason with a shooter" then what do we have to lose??

ANY Armed interloper who enter a school, or worse yet, Breaks INTO a school brandishing a weapon should be forced to face the same horror which THEY plan to excersize on innocents..
No warnings, No verbal commands... identify the target and shoot at the legs...(while taking cover, if possible) if there is return fire or anything but surrender, shoot at the torso...
if necessary??.. well you can figure out the rest...

Fact Is.. a HERO will be made..and an evil-doer will be Done !! the demise of which , most shooters seem to have ALREADY decided upon...

it's about defense and saving lives...


Doable???? Not doable??

Heck we have had Armed Air MArshalls on jets for over ten years now...( maybe even Longer ) Isn't it time that we start protecting our Kids?? AT Schools???

Are there better ways??? If we consider this sort of plan for Schools. then do we NEXT have to do it in Hospitals?? malls? theaters??? How could the training be done?? by Whom??
comments welcome

[OHCHUTE 0]

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.... to consider this approach, aimed toward School Security ?

Choose a half Dozen Key Staff Persons.
Train them in the proper and safe use of a medium level handgun. Then place identical models into discreet lock boxes at 4 or 5 key locations in the building. Have the boxes open to a 2 or 3 digit push button code.
With training and practical rehearsals and an annual review of technique Maybe one of these people could squelch the attack, at it's start.

Do NOT sell short the smiling secretary or the easy going and personable assistant principal or guidence counselor, just by virtue of her gender..!! Many such people have the heart of a Lion and the maternal protective instincts of a Grizzly Bear...Perhaps there are staff people who ALready HAVE some savvy with a gun.

Damn !! if these staff people are gonna be Killed ANYWay, trying "to reason with a shooter" then what do we have to lose??

ANY Armed interloper who enter a school, or worse yet, Breaks INTO a school brandishing a weapon should be forced to face the same horror which THEY plan to excersize on innocents..
No warnings, No verbal commands... identify the target and shoot at the legs...(while taking cover, if possible) if there is return fire or anything but surrender, shoot at the torso...
if necessary??.. well you can figure out the rest...

Fact Is.. a HERO will be made..and an evil-doer will be Done !! the demise of which , most shooters seem to have ALREADY decided upon...

it's about defense and saving lives...


Doable???? Not doable??

Heck we have had Armed Air MArshalls on jets for over ten years now...( maybe even Longer ) Isn't it time that we start protecting our Kids?? AT Schools???

Are there better ways??? If we consider this sort of plan for Schools. then do we NEXT have to do it in Hospitals?? malls? theaters??? How could the training be done?? by Whom??
comments welcome

Employ more speed cameras and take the cops off traffic patrol and put them at the point of entry at schools. Take cops off drug patrol. God sakes 40 cops to put a shirtless guy in the back of a squad car for a couple of joints all while cops are realitiy TV stars. End home schooling. That way we know where the kids are: in school away from their crazy parents who have absolutely no training in instruction or education who think schools are evil influence.

[quade 4]

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ANY Armed interloper who enter a school, or worse yet, Breaks INTO a school brandishing a weapon should be forced to face the same horror which THEY plan to excersize on innocents.

No. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Here's the problem. The gunmen . . . they're crazy.

Simply having to face a non-professional at some point seemed to be part of the plan in both the theater shooting and the school shooting. In both cases the gunmen wore a bit of armor, but when confronted with professionals they offed themselves. They don't seem to care too much about dying via retaliatory gunfire, it seems to be part of their plan it will be their final act they will end their own lives.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[OHCHUTE 0]

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ANY Armed interloper who enter a school, or worse yet, Breaks INTO a school brandishing a weapon should be forced to face the same horror which THEY plan to excersize on innocents.

No. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Here's the problem. The gunmen . . . they're crazy.

Simply having to face a non-professional at some point seemed to be part of the plan in both the theater shooting and the school shooting. In both cases the gunmen wore a bit of armor, but when confronted with professionals they offed themselves. They don't seem to care too much about dying via retaliatory gunfire, it seems to be part of their plan it will be their final act they will end their own lives.

Nonetheless no matter if they're blown away first or they take their own life, which ever comes first, doesn't matter so long they are ended in their mission BEFORE harm to others. Retribution is not any goal in stopping the perp.

[lawrocket 3]

First, this is pretty much exactly along the lines of what I proposed (only I'd add that the weapons can only be accessed by two staffers - thus preventing a single teacher/janitor/etc. from going murderous and raiding the cache.

Second - Paul, they end up offing themselves when confronted with an armed response. The end-game. Yes, they often have body armor. that does not mean that they are invulnerable.

Third - I can see the first responders raising all kinds of hell over an internal armed response. When they come in they won't want to face armed staff shooting everything that is entering. Nor will they want to mistake the defenders as the threats and take them out.

Which means that training and planning is essential to it working.

Note - the teachers unions would also raise hell over it because it's another duty for a teacher. They'd want to ensure that dedicated union staff whose sole purpose is to respond to these threats are hired (one per classroom and a floater per four classrooms).

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rehmwa 2]

he thinks the point of your post was about making the nutjob "face the same horror" comment. The assumption being you don't care about protecting the kids, but just want to get revenge on the killer no matter what as being important.

He didn't seem to respond to your real point of having someone trained and present to immediately respond in protecting the kids vs waiting for the authorities. I can't even tell any more if that was on purpose or not. Sometimes reader pick up on the weirdest points in a post ---- so disputing a comment about that little bit is pointless since you two are talking past each other

the true Speaker's Corner response would be to strawman reply as fast as possible as if he took a conflicting position by virtue of having ignore your real point.

like this -

Sure, Quade, so you are saying you are ok with having unarmed teachers and even more babies to dye while waiting the extra 5 to 10 minutes for the cops to come. I just can't accept that. I value children and teachers.


not true either, Quade's a decent guy. but this response works well here and can generate 2 to three pages of "did", "did not" posts

(Frankly, I like your idea a lot, but just having guns 'stashed' away around some schools would be a clear invite to some students breaking in and stealing the guns somehow - I'd rather the entrusted staff just be allowed to carry on site).

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[quade 4]

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Second - Paul, they end up offing themselves when confronted with an armed response. The end-game. Yes, they often have body armor. that does not mean that they are invulnerable.

I never said they were. What I said was they are prepared for light gunfire. It's part of their plan. They end their plan when the professionals arrive.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rehmwa 2]

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- the teachers unions would also raise hell over it because it's another duty for a teacher. They'd want to ensure that dedicated union staff whose sole purpose is to respond to these threats are hired (one per classroom and a floater per four classrooms).

certainly there would need to be a huge funding increase in property taxes ASAP

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kelpdiver 2]

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Second - Paul, they end up offing themselves when confronted with an armed response. The end-game. Yes, they often have body armor. that does not mean that they are invulnerable.

I never said they were. What I said was they are prepared for light gunfire. It's part of their plan. They end their plan when the professionals arrive.

you mean, when the first armed people arrive.

BTW, let's be a bit precise about the "body armor" stuff. The reporting has been more than sloppy about this, defining any sort of vest as armor, when that's as accurate as saying they were carrying automatic weapons.

[rehmwa 2]

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Second - Paul, they end up offing themselves when confronted with an armed response. The end-game. Yes, they often have body armor. that does not mean that they are invulnerable.

I never said they were. What I said was they are prepared for light gunfire. It's part of their plan. They end their plan when the professionals arrive.

You can't say this for all scenarios. If they plan to suicide at the end, they'll do it when they can't take any more victims. So that happens when it happens, whether it occurs due to the presence of professionals or any other reason.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[quade 4]

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You can't say this for all scenarios.

Nor did I.

I said the theater shooting and the school shooting.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Gravitymaster 0]

They do have biometric gun safes.

Why do you hate children?

[rehmwa 2]

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Why do you hate children?

they smell funny and use bad grammar

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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You can't say this for all scenarios.

Nor did I.

I said the theater shooting and the school shooting.

oh then your point is moot as the OP didn't suggest going back in time and training and arming teachers and ushers before the events occur.

though it's too bad we couldn't. events like these deserve a do-over to stop it before it happens...

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[lawrocket 3]

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Second - Paul, they end up offing themselves when confronted with an armed response. The end-game. Yes, they often have body armor. that does not mean that they are invulnerable.

I never said they were. What I said was they are prepared for light gunfire. It's part of their plan. They end their plan when the professionals arrive.

Well, yes. They are prepared for it. They want to increase the length of time they live, the damage they can inflict, etc. Look at the North Hollywood incident. They didn't expect to exchange gunfire but they sure as hell prepared for it. One guy offed himself when his thumb got shot off and he realized it was fruitless. the other guy didn't have body armor on his legs and was shot 20 or 30 times and bled to death while the ambulance took its sweet time.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[BIGUN 1,483]

End the war.

Pull out of all countries.

Use the money to train veterans to be campus police.

Colleges & Universities have them; why not the elementary schools?

EDIT: I'm becoming an Isolationist in my old age.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[quade 4]

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You can't say this for all scenarios.

Nor did I.
I said the theater shooting and the school shooting.

oh then your point is moot as the OP didn't suggest going back in time and training and arming teachers and ushers before the events occur.
though it's too bad we couldn't. events like these deserve a do-over to stop it before it happens...

Could you possibly be more obtuse or not pay attention to what is actually being said?

You're not reading what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is, it is more than likely that these individuals KNOW they have a high probability of dying while carrying out their plan. They do a bit of preparation to help prevent that, but ultimately they intend to die by their own hand. They have no intention of "getting away." It is, for them, a suicide mission to begin with.

In other words, you're not going to stop them -ever- by simply having one or two amateurs on site.

It will NOT scare them off.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rehmwa 2]

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Could you possibly be more obtuse or not pay attention to what is actually being said?

You're not reading what I'm saying.

the irony here is amazing

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In other words, you're not going to stop them -ever- by simply having one or two amateurs on site.

It will NOT scare them off.

the OP isn't proposing something that would eliminate all possible events

but the proposal does have two points: 1 - it might actually eliminate 'some' events of the wacko knows someone armed is there. and for the really determined wacko you mention.... 2 - they might help to end the massacre MUCH sooner


you'd be better off arguing that the presence of armed protectors (to whatever level of training you might choose - "amateur" all the way to whatever) - might just motivate the wacko to take even stronger precautions. It would still be a weak argument, but at least it's on point.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[quade 4]

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the OP isn't proposing something that would eliminate all possible events

What I'm saying is, it would have no effect.

People complain about security theater . . . well, that's all tis would be.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[lawrocket 3]

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In other words, you're not going to stop them -ever- by simply having one or two amateurs on site.

It will NOT scare them off.

I beg to differ. Again, look at where these shootings tend to occur. Densely packed population and probability of no self-defense capabilities.

And these guys often survive. Look at the shooter in the Aurora theater. How about the Loughner guy in Arizona? The guy in my beloved Seal Beach who took out a whole salon.

My point is that these people are often strictly on homicide missions. Frequently they are on suicide missions. However, they seem to also be on missions to cause the maximum amount of death with minimum risk. Not “no risk” but “minimum risk.”

The most risk-averse among them will look for places where defenses are banned. I mean, to deny that goes against common sense. I think that it is pretty well established that, in nature and in society, predators seek the easy victim. Humans are animals. Like any predator in nature a human predator prefers conquest with minimum risk. With no more hazard than necessary. With as little effort as necessary. Without sign of defiance or expectation of struggle.

Predators do select their targets. Right now, we are making target selection pretty easy.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Could you possibly be more obtuse or not pay attention to what is actually being said?

Two weeks in the hole!

[lawrocket 3]

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the OP isn't proposing something that would eliminate all possible events

What I'm saying is, it would have no effect.

What I'm saying is this: let's test it.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rehmwa 2]

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the OP isn't proposing something that would eliminate all possible events

What I'm saying is, it would have no effect.

then it's simple disagreement

IMO - it would be more effective than anything else I've seen so far

both as deterrent, or at least minimizing the impact

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,146]

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First, this is pretty much exactly along the lines of what I proposed (only I'd add that the weapons can only be accessed by two staffers - thus preventing a single teacher/janitor/etc. from going murderous and raiding the cache.

Second - Paul, they end up offing themselves when confronted with an armed response. The end-game. Yes, they often have body armor. that does not mean that they are invulnerable.

Third - I can see the first responders raising all kinds of hell over an internal armed response. When they come in they won't want to face armed staff shooting everything that is entering. Nor will they want to mistake the defenders as the threats and take them out.

Which means that training and planning is essential to it working.

Note - the teachers unions would also raise hell over it because it's another duty for a teacher. They'd want to ensure that dedicated union staff whose sole purpose is to respond to these threats are hired (one per classroom and a floater per four classrooms).

Wouldn't it be better, in addition, to reduce the probability that a crazy person can get a semi-auto firearm in the first place? Any solution that only involves arming the staff will just guarantee some shots being fired before there's a response.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

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Wouldn't it be better, in addition, to reduce the probability that a crazy person can get a semi-auto firearm in the first place?

Of course it would. Just like it would be better to have building materials that are as strong as concrete, flexible as steel, light as carbon, and as easy to work with a silly putty.

The issue is "how?" How can you reduce the probability of a crazy person getting a semi-auto firearm. And do it now within the constraints of such things as the Constitution?

Until/unless the Constitution changes (not a quick process) it must be considered properly as a constraining factor of any proposal. Then add to it the practical considerations, i.e., "How are we going to enforce it?"

My wife is hotter than your wife.