I Really Hope the news is Wrong...

[kelpdiver 2]

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They need eliminate the sale of body armor, using body armor, trading in body armor, owning body armor. Makes it difficult to get a shot on the bad guy, And only bad guy's are wearing body armor around the mall or school district.

this shooter was not wearing body armor. just a vest.

[Bignugget 0]

I agree that we need more guns, lots lots lots more guns. Lets look at the places with gun deaths by capita, and then check the best ones and see how they do it, I bet they also have guns for everyone.....ok....here we goooooo...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

nice!! wiki has a list, ok lets see whos winning!

Ok we arent doing bad, 9th worst in the list, just above (worse than) SERBIA AND ZIMBABWE, both really nice countries filled with happy non-violent folks.....but who is doing the best hmm..

CHILE???? ok they certainly all have guns. lets see....

In a comparison of the rate of private gun ownership in 179 countries, Chile ranked at No. 59)

dangit, well they dont all have them, but some do!

The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in Chile is 1,500,000 to 2,000,000) (Chile's 2002 census reported a population of 15.1 million people.)

I bet they would be even better if all 15 million were armed, but lets check some others on the list to make sure we are right in arming everyone.

Azerbaijan is #2 tied with Japan at #3 so lets check out Japan since its a bit more mainstream.

"Civilians cannot obtain handgun target licenses. Even possession of a starter's pistol is only allowed under carefully- detailed conditions."

Gah! wtf! How in the world are these guys not getting schools of kids shot up daily??? NO ONE HAS GUNS??? WTF!

Ok certainly thats a random isolated event, lets keep going.

Ok South Korea at #4, those guys have to be armed to defend against the North Koreans who might come kill their kids at school, so im sure we will get back on track.

The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in South Korea is 510,000) (According to the 2005 census, Seoul had a population of 9.8 million inhabitants)

Whew, thank god, they have some guns. Not as many as they need obviously since Japan, Azerbaijan, and Chile have fewer gun deaths, but they are probably doing their best to make more.

Now, lets see how the USA is doing, we must really be sucking in gun possession if we cant even beat 5%

The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in the United States is 270,000,000)

Wow that seems high why arent we stopping these gun deaths?????? We must have a TON of people to be below 5%, lets do a little division (The U.S. Census Bureau estimates the country's population now to be 314,941,000,)

WTF THIS CANT BE RIGHT 85.73%??????? How are we not having the least gun deaths????

im fckin confused as hell now, wtf.

[lummy 4]

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In an Active Shooter Emergency

Make a decision, trusting your instincts, to take action to protect yourself to survive the situation. You generally will have three options:

Get away: Can you safely escape?
Hide: Is there a good place to hide?
Confront: Will you take out the shooter?

These are essentially the same instructions we were given here at Cal. I wouldn't be surprised if the plans was similar throughout the state.

I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1

[kallend 2,112]

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"Gun show loophole"? is that the myth that you can buy a gun at a gun show from a dealer with out a background check? if so it is incorrect. If you buy from a Dealer, there is the Federally mandated background check.

Now, private citizen can sell to a private citizen, if he has no suspicion of the buyer having a restriction to firearms ownership, as per Federal Law.

Very good, you HAVE identified the loophole. You just don't want to admit it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[vortexring 0]

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I do, often, find myself wondering why we in the USA seem more prone to these kinds of incidents. I never have come up with a good answer. It's not like other countries don't have these sorts of incidents, of course, but our frequency seems far greater than the rest of the world.

The US is one of the largest countries in the world, along with being one of the ones with the highest rate of guns in circulation.

But the number of events is such a small number that it makes comparison difficult. Norway, with its singular event, dominates them all from a simple rate calculation. England's one Dunblame also puts it pretty high given the smaller population.

But like shark attacks, these aren't the biggest threats children face in life, or even close. But they strike much more fear than the possibility of getting run over in a driveway or drowning in the pool.

Dunblane is in Scotland, the United Kingdom, which is made up of England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland.

After the Dunblane shootings: "public debate subsequent to these events centred on gun-control laws, including media-driven public petitions calling for a ban on private ownership of handguns and an official enquiry, the Cullen Report. In response to this debate, the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997 and the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997 were enacted, which effectively made private ownership of handguns illegal in the United Kingdom." Wikipedia.

Concealed carry is at best a short-term solution (?) to a self-perpetuating problem; gun proliferation. Arming oneself to protect oneself against gun-nuts, or lunatic murderers who utilise guns as a means to achieve their aims, isn't going to solve this ever-more frequent problem.

But what will???

How do you achieve a shift in cultural beliefs?

The UK hasn't suffered a school-shooting (as far as I'm aware) to the extent of Dunblane since personal handgun possession was banned. But then the UK never had anything like the gun culture as America has.

I think the same laws should be applied in the USA. A massive draconian ban. Unrealistic? Or course; but that's through an insane gun-culture that should've went along the way of modernisation as the West stopped being so Wild, as culture progressed and advanced.

Of course lunatics and criminals will still find means to arm themselves with guns and other weapon systems...

But I'd expect with such draconian measures in place the frequency of school shootings and other such massacres would reduce, primarily based on less easy access, and an enormous reduction in gun proliferation.

But more importantly; a reduction in gun massacres through a change in gun culture.

Either give up your guns and change your culture or suffer more frequent massacres, or classroom/ campus firefights if the solution only goes so far as to allow teachers concealed carry rights in the classroom.

Heart-breaking.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[1969912 0]

I'm just fucking sick over this thing. I'm not religious, but I do believe in God, so I'll just pray for the kids and their parents/siblings, wheter it works or not. The fighting over gun rights and shit can wait.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[toolbox 0]

Guns are not the problem.
Crazy sicko freaks who want to hurt others is the problem.
What if this nut had packed a 26 foot moving van full of home made explosives and parked it out front while school was getting out like oklahoma or northern ireland in the 70's.
Should we say we have a moving van and fertilizer problem and outlaw them?
Many drugs are unlawful to possess or use,yet we have more drugs on the streets than ever.
If guns are outlawed only the criminals will have guns and if you think law enforcement will protect you from bad people with guns you need to look at the southern border states and the drug gangs kidnapping or killing US citizens at will,with little if any resistance from the law.
Even our border patrol agents are afraid of these thugs.
There have always been crazy sicko's and bad people,and I hate to say,but will most likely always be crazy sicko's and bad people.

[Bignugget 0]

ummmm yes, exactly.

there were 2 components here

a crazy sicko.

and guns.

if you take the number of guns from lets say 250 MILLION

to lets say 10 MILLION

do you think it would be MORE or LESS easy for the 20 year old to get them?

COULD he make a timothy mcveigh van? MAYBE.

Was it a SHITTON EASIER to just grab a couple guns from his house and kill 20 kids.....yep.

but hey, if you want to make it easy

go nuts bro.

[vortexring 0]

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Guns are not the problem.
Crazy sicko freaks who want to hurt others is the problem.
What if this nut had packed a 26 foot moving van full of home made explosives and parked it out front while school was getting out like oklahoma or northern ireland in the 70's.
Should we say we have a moving van and fertilizer problem and outlaw them?

As far as I'm aware the perpetrators of school massacres have yet to use ANFO type improvised devices, transported in vans, to murder their victims.

Might be an idea to keep tabs on who is buying fertiliser though...

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Many drugs are unlawful to possess or use,yet we have more drugs on the streets than ever.

I doubt the body counts would be so high if nut-cases attacked their victims with dope plants, powder and various pills...

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If guns are outlawed only the criminals will have guns and if you think law enforcement will protect you from bad people with guns you need to look at the southern border states and the drug gangs kidnapping or killing US citizens at will,with little if any resistance from the law.

But through them being outlawed they'll be harder to access; whether you're planning murdering children or simply just a criminal. If 30 years in jail is the result of illegal firearm possession, less criminals will be willing to risk carrying. Criminals carry guns in the UK too; despite them being illegal, but generally use them to attack other criminal gang members than to randomly shoot innocent citizens.

There's nobody in the UK demanding rights to protect themselves with firearms because to be honest, they aren't necessary.

Maybe gun culture and proliferation isn't the primary reasons for more frequent US school massacres; but if not, what are the reasons?

What makes the US so unique in regards to the frequency of these massacres?

I genuinely see it as being the desire to be armed; an armed society perpetuates the crazies amongst it having easier access to firearms to commit their atrocities. Along with a Hollywood culture of firearms and being adept in their use being seen as something that's positive and attractive.

Guns and their proliferation, and the associated culture, are indeed the problem...'crazy sicko freaks' aren't committing these atrocities with anything else on a regular basis.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[pincheck 0]

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I do, often, find myself wondering why we in the USA seem more prone to these kinds of incidents. I never have come up with a good answer. It's not like other countries don't have these sorts of incidents, of course, but our frequency seems far greater than the rest of the world.

The US is one of the largest countries in the world, along with being one of the ones with the highest rate of guns in circulation.

But the number of events is such a small number that it makes comparison difficult. Norway, with its singular event, dominates them all from a simple rate calculation. England's one Dunblame also puts it pretty high given the smaller population.

But like shark attacks, these aren't the biggest threats children face in life, or even close. But they strike much more fear than the possibility of getting run over in a driveway or drowning in the pool.

Dunblane is in Scotland, the United Kingdom, which is made up of England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland.

After the Dunblane shootings: "public debate subsequent to these events centred on gun-control laws, including media-driven public petitions calling for a ban on private ownership of handguns and an official enquiry, the Cullen Report. In response to this debate, the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997 and the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997 were enacted, which effectively made private ownership of handguns illegal in the United Kingdom." Wikipedia.

Concealed carry is at best a short-term solution (?) to a self-perpetuating problem; gun proliferation. Arming oneself to protect oneself against gun-nuts, or lunatic murderers who utilise guns as a means to achieve their aims, isn't going to solve this ever-more frequent problem.

But what will???

How do you achieve a shift in cultural beliefs?

The UK hasn't suffered a school-shooting (as far as I'm aware) to the extent of Dunblane since personal handgun possession was banned. But then the UK never had anything like the gun culture as America has.

I think the same laws should be applied in the USA. A massive draconian ban. Unrealistic? Or course; but that's through an insane gun-culture that should've went along the way of modernisation as the West stopped being so Wild, as culture progressed and advanced.

Of course lunatics and criminals will still find means to arm themselves with guns and other weapon systems...

But I'd expect with such draconian measures in place the frequency of school shootings and other such massacres would reduce, primarily based on less easy access, and an enormous reduction in gun proliferation.

But more importantly; a reduction in gun massacres through a change in gun culture.

Either give up your guns and change your culture or suffer more frequent massacres, or classroom/ campus firefights if the solution only goes so far as to allow teachers concealed carry rights in the classroom.

Heart-breaking.

Well said mate and so sad and so true

Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun

[Gravitymaster 0]

Haven't you figured out how to blame this on Republicans, yet? It's been more than 24hrs. You need to get busy.

[lawrocket 3]

Okay. What's your timeframe on getting guns away from people? A week? A month? A decade?

What do we do in the meantime?

Apparently this school had increased its security procedures to prevent this from occurring. That is a good thing. The problem is that the security measures were quickly defeated by blowing away the unarmed security feature.

My wife had an interesting comment. She works in prisons, which she says are gun free zones. Prisoners find ways to make them and smuggle them in. To prisons, people. Prisons are drug free zones. Cell phone free zones. Alcohol free zones. Knife free zones. And under close guard. Yet all these things are constantly found in prisons.

My reading of the hoittie's comments: you could turn America into a police state and people would find ways to get contraband. So it would be harder to get a gun. But a gun would be gotten.

Waiting periods were designed to prevent these incidents. Turns out waiting periods don't do much when the killers just kill someone with a gun and then go about their business.

So private citizens don't have guns. Then they cannot be killed for them. People - even with the gun legality that we have there is STILL a massive black market for guns. Enough of the pipe dreams about banning guns in the US. It's like religion - lots of nice things but "pragmatic" isn't one of them. Or like banning drugs. Or drunk driving. Banning drugs has just made the situation worse.

Time for a different track. 30 years of "ban guns" hasn't worked. This is an uncomfortable thought to many because it goes to the core of beliefs. Religious-level beliefs.

Let's think of other ideas. But for the time being, since we are no good at preventing this stuff from happening let us start planning what we can do to mitigate it.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,112]

You are suggesting a false dichotomy.

Just because a solution isn't 100% effective doesn't mean it's useless.

1. require NICS check on ALL transfers.

2. penalty for violations such as straw purchase minimum 20 years no parole.

3. mandatory reporting of all mental health problems.

4. registration of guns. Penalty for having unregistered gun 20 years no parole.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[vortexring 0]

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Time for a different track. 30 years of "ban guns" hasn't worked. This is an uncomfortable thought to many because it goes to the core of beliefs. Religious-level beliefs.

Let's think of other ideas. But for the time being, since we are no good at preventing this stuff from happening let us start planning what we can do to mitigate it.

What's the point if prolific gun ownership is the crux of the problem?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Arvoitus 1]

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What makes the US so unique in regards to the frequency of these massacres?

Nothing, look up my previous post in this thread.

In fact I messed up the numbers for Finland as I forgot once incident.

So for Finland its actually 4 / 54,22 which is about 0,0737 mass shootings per 100,000 people vs. US's 0,00868 mass shootings per 100,000 people.

So per capita, Finland has almost 9 times as many mass shootings as US.

Also the first modern mass killing was done by chemistry student who built a bomb from ammonium nitrate, nitromethane and gun pellets. He took the bomb to a shopping center, killed 7 and wounded 166 people.

The US doesn't have exclusivity on people with mental health issues.

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[rushmc 23]

What's the point if prolific gun ownership is the crux of the problem?

[rushmc 23]

The only thing false is your assertion bans work

Not even in your home town

Thankfully the courts overturned the idiots

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-shootings-violence-december-14-december-15-20121214,0,912168.story

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[vortexring 0]

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What makes the US so unique in regards to the frequency of these massacres?

Nothing, look up my previous post in this thread.

In fact I messed up the numbers for Finland as I forgot once incident.

So for Finland its actually 4 / 54,22 which is about 0,0737 mass shootings per 100,000 people vs. US's 0,00868 mass shootings per 100,000 people.

So per capita, Finland has almost 9 times as many mass shootings as US.

Also the first modern mass killing was done by chemistry student who built a bomb from ammonium nitrate, nitromethane and gun pellets. He took the bomb to a shopping center, killed 7 and wounded 166 people.

The US doesn't have exclusivity on people with mental health issues.

Eh?

Could you provide some evidence to your claims regarding Finland please?

If indeed you're correct, then we'll add Finland along with the USA then; it doesn't mitigate the problem, does it?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[rushmc 23]

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What makes the US so unique in regards to the frequency of these massacres?

Nothing, look up my previous post in this thread.

In fact I messed up the numbers for Finland as I forgot once incident.

So for Finland its actually 4 / 54,22 which is about 0,0737 mass shootings per 100,000 people vs. US's 0,00868 mass shootings per 100,000 people.

So per capita, Finland has almost 9 times as many mass shootings as US.

Also the first modern mass killing was done by chemistry student who built a bomb from ammonium nitrate, nitromethane and gun pellets. He took the bomb to a shopping center, killed 7 and wounded 166 people.

The US doesn't have exclusivity on people with mental health issues.

Thanks for the numbers

Kind of takes the wind out the argument the US is soooooooooo much worse

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[vortexring 0]

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What's the point if prolific gun ownership is the crux of the problem?

Since prolific gun ownership is not the problem, you have no point

[vortexring 0]

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What makes the US so unique in regards to the frequency of these massacres?

Nothing, look up my previous post in this thread.

In fact I messed up the numbers for Finland as I forgot once incident.

So for Finland its actually 4 / 54,22 which is about 0,0737 mass shootings per 100,000 people vs. US's 0,00868 mass shootings per 100,000 people.

So per capita, Finland has almost 9 times as many mass shootings as US.

Also the first modern mass killing was done by chemistry student who built a bomb from ammonium nitrate, nitromethane and gun pellets. He took the bomb to a shopping center, killed 7 and wounded 166 people.

The US doesn't have exclusivity on people with mental health issues.

Thanks for the numbers

Kind of takes the wind out the argument the US is soooooooooo much worse

It doesn't mitigate the existing problem, whether Finland has a higher rate of massacres or not.

Fucks sake.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[rushmc 23]

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What's the point if prolific gun ownership is the crux of the problem?

Since prolific gun ownership is not the problem, you have no point

What is the problem then please?

You mentioned a few things earlier, yet other developed nations suffer exactly the same problems you described, as I pointed out, but without frequent massacres.

[rushmc 23]

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What makes the US so unique in regards to the frequency of these massacres?

Nothing, look up my previous post in this thread.

In fact I messed up the numbers for Finland as I forgot once incident.

So for Finland its actually 4 / 54,22 which is about 0,0737 mass shootings per 100,000 people vs. US's 0,00868 mass shootings per 100,000 people.

So per capita, Finland has almost 9 times as many mass shootings as US.

Also the first modern mass killing was done by chemistry student who built a bomb from ammonium nitrate, nitromethane and gun pellets. He took the bomb to a shopping center, killed 7 and wounded 166 people.

The US doesn't have exclusivity on people with mental health issues.

Thanks for the numbers

Kind of takes the wind out the argument the US is soooooooooo much worse

It doesn't mitigate the existing problem, whether Finland has a higher rate of massacres or not.

Fucks sake.

Fucks sake is correct

to fix something the problem has to be identified

YOU have not done that

You are just having a knee jerk reaction to an item

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[vortexring 0]

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What's the point if prolific gun ownership is the crux of the problem?

Since prolific gun ownership is not the problem, you have no point

What is the problem then please?

You mentioned a few things earlier, yet other developed nations suffer exactly the same problems you described, as I pointed out, but without frequent massacres.

I believe the other poster proved you incorrect in regards to frequency

[rushmc 23]

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What's the point if prolific gun ownership is the crux of the problem?

Since prolific gun ownership is not the problem, you have no point

What is the problem then please?

You mentioned a few things earlier, yet other developed nations suffer exactly the same problems you described, as I pointed out, but without frequent massacres.

I believe the other poster proved you incorrect in regards to frequency

I believe the other poster has yet to provide the evidence.

Whether he does or not, it doesn't detract from the simple fact the high frequency of US massacres.

You've still to address my earlier question. Please do so; I'm all ears.



You start from a flawed premise.

Guns are not the issue

Not that you care

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln