Union supporters in michigan have anger issues

[regulator 0]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b18_1355258119

[Rick 67]

It has been my experience the union's do not take losing well

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[DougH 270]

Hopefully some people get arrested for assault. I tend to view not punching other human beings in the face as a bipartisan issue.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[rushmc 23]

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Hopefully some people get arrested for assault. I tend to view not punching other human beings in the face as a bipartisan issue.

Besides FOX, the Huffinton Post is the only media covering the attack

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[GeorgiaDon 380]

Maybe if they put a hidden gps tracking device on the Governor, they can find out where Jimmy Hoffa went to.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[rhaig 0]

Ok, so I want to know what is so horrible about right to work laws. I hear ideas about why it weakens unions (they won't have as much money and influence without 100% enrollment). I hear about how it's not-fair that non-members will reap the same benefits of the union without paying dues. For every article on how unions are bad for the local economy or wages, I've seen as many with the opposite viewpoint.

I like the idea that people won't be forced to pay dues to an organization they may not want to join.

I used to be a union member when I worked for the state of TX. The dues were minimal and they did some good work. I chose to join and pay dues, I was not forced to or pressured to by co-workers.

--
Rob

[GeorgiaDon 380]

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I used to be a union member when I worked for the state of TX. The dues were minimal and they did some good work. I chose to join and pay dues, I was not forced to or pressured to by co-workers.

If you received all the benefits of the "good work" they did, without having to pay any dues, would you have joined (or is that what you did)? Perhaps you were forward-thinking enough to recognize that you had an interest in supporting the organization that did some good things that benefited you. Most people would take the benefits and pocket the dues, even if minimal, as well. Good way to kill a union. Think of it this way: imagine a gas station where you can fuel up, then decide if you want to pay or not. If you and most other people choose not to pay, the station will soon close. On the other hand, if you pay but someone else doesn't, then you will be "losing" by subsidizing them. How long do you think that gas station will stay open?

Of course there are also "freedom of choice" issues with being forced to join a union. The issue is not simple. But it's pretty obvious that "right to work" legislation is intended to be union-busting.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Rick 67]

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I used to be a union member when I worked for the state of TX. The dues were minimal and they did some good work. I chose to join and pay dues, I was not forced to or pressured to by co-workers.

If you received all the benefits of the "good work" they did, without having to pay any dues, would you have joined (or is that what you did)? Perhaps you were forward-thinking enough to recognize that you had an interest in supporting the organization that did some good things that benefited you. Most people would take the benefits and pocket the dues, even if minimal, as well. Good way to kill a union. Think of it this way: imagine a gas station where you can fuel up, then decide if you want to pay or not. If you and most other people choose not to pay, the station will soon close. On the other hand, if you pay but someone else doesn't, then you will be "losing" by subsidizing them. How long do you think that gas station will stay open?

Of course there are also "freedom of choice" issues with being forced to join a union. The issue is not simple. But it's pretty obvious that "right to work" legislation is intended to be union-busting.

Don

Maybe not Union busting just making a more level playing field. Let the worker decide if they wan to join a union rather than being forced into it.

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[DougH 270]

Unions could negotiate contracts for union members only. Of course non union members could price them out of the labor market.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[quade 4]

Everyone has "anger issues."

Try mentioning gun control during a half time and see what happens.
Try mentioning how religion is bunk during the holidays.
Try mentioning how the rich exploit the poor.

Everybody.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[turtlespeed 226]

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I used to be a union member when I worked for the state of TX. The dues were minimal and they did some good work. I chose to join and pay dues, I was not forced to or pressured to by co-workers.

If you received all the benefits of the "good work" they did, without having to pay any dues, would you have joined (or is that what you did)? Perhaps you were forward-thinking enough to recognize that you had an interest in supporting the organization that did some good things that benefited you. Most people would take the benefits and pocket the dues, even if minimal, as well. Good way to kill a union. Think of it this way: imagine a gas station where you can fuel up, then decide if you want to pay or not. If you and most other people choose not to pay, the station will soon close. On the other hand, if you pay but someone else doesn't, then you will be "losing" by subsidizing them. How long do you think that gas station will stay open?

Of course there are also "freedom of choice" issues with being forced to join a union. The issue is not simple. But it's pretty obvious that "right to work" legislation is intended to be union-busting.

Don

As well it should be in a lot of cases.

It appears that you are overstating your analogy of paying or not paying.
Perhaps a better one would be of going to a restaurant. The bill comes, a tip for the service they provided is probably expected.
If the service (benefits) was mediocre or, perhaps the service (benefits) were substantially better than you can get elsewhere, then you might want to include a meager tip, or a larger tip, respectively.
If the service (benefits) were not to your liking at all, or you were unsatisfied with them, you may opt to leave no tip at all.
I have done this a few times, the tip was in a not form describing what was disagreeable and where improvement might be applied.

In essence, unions are saying that you will leave a tip no matter what you desire or service (benefits) you received.
No choice, no personal control, no substantial input, no recourse.

That said, "Right to work" is also one way that insures that individuals can fund what legislation they want to instead of having to tow the union party line whether they want to or not.

Unions are too politically entrenched and should be de-politicized.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Rick 67]

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Everyone has "anger issues."

Try mentioning gun control during a half time and see what happens.
Try mentioning how religion is bunk during the holidays.
Try mentioning how the rich exploit the poor.

Everybody.

not everybody resorts to violence due to such issues

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[rushmc 23]

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I used to be a union member when I worked for the state of TX. The dues were minimal and they did some good work. I chose to join and pay dues, I was not forced to or pressured to by co-workers.

If you received all the benefits of the "good work" they did, without having to pay any dues, would you have joined (or is that what you did)? Perhaps you were forward-thinking enough to recognize that you had an interest in supporting the organization that did some good things that benefited you. Most people would take the benefits and pocket the dues, even if minimal, as well. Good way to kill a union. Think of it this way: imagine a gas station where you can fuel up, then decide if you want to pay or not. If you and most other people choose not to pay, the station will soon close. On the other hand, if you pay but someone else doesn't, then you will be "losing" by subsidizing them. How long do you think that gas station will stay open?

Of course there are also "freedom of choice" issues with being forced to join a union. The issue is not simple. But it's pretty obvious that "right to work" legislation is intended to be union-busting.

Don

No, it is simple

It is about choice and freedom

It is also about having my dues spent supporting political candidates I did not

Look, this does not hurt the workers and it does not help the state

All this affects is the cash cow of the Democratic party and the power the union leadership gets by having that money

It is that simple

The rest is just bloviations from both sides to try and bolster their position in the media

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[DougH 270]

Quote

Everyone has "anger issues."

Try mentioning gun control during a half time and see what happens.
Try mentioning how religion is bunk during the holidays.
Try mentioning how the rich exploit the poor.

Everybody.

Anybody in your "everybody" category is a neanderthal if they can't face an opposing opinion without getting violent.

I have friends of all political, social, racial, and economic walks of life. I wonder how we resit beating the shit out of each other on a daily basis, despite being so far apart of many issues?

The world may never know!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[turtlespeed 226]

Quote

Everyone has "anger issues."

Try mentioning gun control during a half time and see what happens.
Try mentioning how religion is bunk during the holidays.
Try mentioning how the rich exploit the poor.

Everybody.

So, which area is yours to claim as your anger issue?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rushmc 23]

The world may never know!

[quade 4]

Quote

Quote

Everyone has "anger issues."

Try mentioning gun control during a half time and see what happens.
Try mentioning how religion is bunk during the holidays.
Try mentioning how the rich exploit the poor.

Everybody.

So, which area is yours to claim as your anger issue?

Well, at least that's a start. Others are in denial, but at least you agree with the concept by correctly assuming there are buttons of mine that can be pressed.

Not that I'm stupid enough to tell them to you here.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Everyone has "anger issues."

Try mentioning gun control during a half time and see what happens.
Try mentioning how religion is bunk during the holidays.
Try mentioning how the rich exploit the poor.

Everybody.

So, which area is yours to claim as your anger issue?

Well, at least that's a start. Others are in denial, but at least you agree with the concept by correctly assuming there are buttons of mine that can be pressed.

Not that I'm stupid enough to tell them to you here.

I was taught that having an anger issue is different than acting on that anger

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[regulator 0]

Is your 'asian prostitute button' within reach?

[turtlespeed 226]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Everyone has "anger issues."

Try mentioning gun control during a half time and see what happens.
Try mentioning how religion is bunk during the holidays.
Try mentioning how the rich exploit the poor.

Everybody.

So, which area is yours to claim as your anger issue?

Well, at least that's a start. Others are in denial, but at least you agree with the concept by correctly assuming there are buttons of mine that can be pressed.

Not that I'm stupid enough to tell them to you here.

Oh, sure you are!



Perhaps it would be better to say, then, that "Union supporters in Michigan have a severe lack of self control as well as anger issues."

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rhaig 0]

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I used to be a union member when I worked for the state of TX. The dues were minimal and they did some good work. I chose to join and pay dues, I was not forced to or pressured to by co-workers.

If you received all the benefits of the "good work" they did, without having to pay any dues, would you have joined (or is that what you did)?

That's exactly what I did. I got a flyer with my newhire packet that described the union and what they'd done in the past few years as well as explaining the dues. I chose at that point to join.

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Perhaps you were forward-thinking enough to recognize that you had an interest in supporting the organization that did some good things that benefited you. Most people would take the benefits and pocket the dues, even if minimal, as well. Good way to kill a union. Think of it this way: imagine a gas station where you can fuel up, then decide if you want to pay or not. If you and most other people choose not to pay, the station will soon close. On the other hand, if you pay but someone else doesn't, then you will be "losing" by subsidizing them. How long do you think that gas station will stay open?

Of course there are also "freedom of choice" issues with being forced to join a union. The issue is not simple. But it's pretty obvious that "right to work" legislation is intended to be union-busting.

Don

a very large gas station chain not far from here has a store that isn't going to that extreme. They are selling gas for a few pennies above cost. They have a very large store on site as well and rely on fuel traffic to drive retail traffic. Retail sales help keep the place in the green. They've been operating this way for a couple of years now. While there isn't a money losing proposition in that deal, they would stand to profit more from gas by raising their prices to the same as everyone else. But they don't because enough people come in and choose to shop their retail selection as well.

thank you for your time, but you're telling me what I've already heard. (short version) "wah!! scab is getting access to benefits that my union negotiated!!" I was wondering what was bad about the RTW laws other than this "not fair" mentality. Apparently that's it.

--
Rob

[regulator 0]

I can tell you right now the don't have bathrooms nearly as clean as Buc-ees!

http://www.bucees.com/restrooms.html

[lawrocket 3]

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If you received all the benefits of the "good work" they did, without having to pay any dues, would you have joined (or is that what you did)?

That also comes with a cost. As with everything, there is cost-benefit. A union does a fine job for those that are entrenched. Somebody with 20 years in a union job is favored over someone with 5 years. Period. That’s good for the entrenched but not for the neophyte. Thus, when we read about new contracts requiring layoffs, it often disproportionately falls upon those who are new to the game.

And how is this a cost? Because performance is not the issue, anymore. The issue is seniority. Hence, googling “teacher of the year laid off” gets almost 80k hits. Seniority is the basis for layoffs, not performance. Perhaps more people would be employed without the union. Perhaps not. But – unions have had the effect of creating a class of nobility. Of people who, in a sense, cannot be touched by economic situations.

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Perhaps you were forward-thinking enough to recognize that you had an interest in supporting the organization that did some good things that benefited you.

And costs, at the same time. Whether the costs exceed the benefits is an individual determination.

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Most people would take the benefits and pocket the dues, even if minimal, as well.

Or, like me, I’ll negotiate my own terms of employment. Whether unions like it or not, I DO have that capability. So the employer offers me $20 per hour with health insurance and two weeks vacation and pension. Maybe I don’t want that. How about if I negotiate and say it’s better for me to get paid $27 per hour without health insurance and I’ll get my own retirement. Maybe I’m covered under my wife’s insurance and I like to play stocks. The employer may see, “Hmm. This guy saves me $3 per hour without those benefits.” Sure, my total compensation is less, but I don’t need the other stuff and an extra $7 per hour nets me an extra $14k in disposable income per year. Plus I’m not paying the union a cut.

If I’m in a union shop, I can’t negotiate that. And it sure as hell isn’t free riding. If I prove my value, I’ll stick around. I know what my needs are much better than a union does, thank you very much.

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Think of it this way: imagine a gas station where you can fuel up, then decide if you want to pay or not. If you and most other people choose not to pay, the station will soon close. On the other hand, if you pay but someone else doesn't, then you will be "losing" by subsidizing them. How long do you think that gas station will stay open?

I actually think of it like a gas station where you are required for full service. Sure, I could do self-serve for $3.50 per gallon, but thanks to the rules, I pay $5.50 per gallon and get someone to pump my gas, check my tires, wash the car, monitor the oil, and rotate the tires for each stop. Sure, it’s cool to have such a thing. But unions eliminate “self serve” from the menu. What if I don’t want all that stuff, despite how much you tell me I need it?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[GeorgiaDon 380]

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That also comes with a cost....

Just so it's clear, I was answering a question (from regulator) about why "right to work" legislation is perceived as being anti-union, not stating any sort of opinion about whether or not I am pro-union.

I'll assume you, too, were just taking an opportunity to provide a different perspective.

As it happens, I agree with almost all of your post. All except the wife thing, I'm sure that's a matter of personal preference.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[rehmwa 2]

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What if I don’t want all that stuff, despite how much you tell me I need it?

mainly to keep your knee caps in place, unbroken thumbs, etc. To prove to total strangers that you don't hate babies, whales, and the poor oppressed people of other countries. If you lived in a major metro area with an outlawed subway you'd understand that.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants