Gorbachev

[wmw999 2,587]

I listened to a speech by Mikhail Gorbachev last night; it was awesome. Here is a guy who really can say pretty much whatever he wants -- he's Mikhail Gorbachev, the man who, more than anyone else, was responsible for ending the cold war.

Yes, plenty of others were part of it, including pressure from Reagan. But without him or someone like him (and he gave props to Gromyko for being onboard with massive change from the start), we might still be mired in that "can't change it because it's what we've always known" web.

Some of the primary points that I heard from him included:

No country wants to be the "little brother" in a relationship among countries. Not China with USSR, not Warsaw Pact countries with USSR, not Russia with USA, etc. All countries see themselves as equally important to their own people, with needs they have to protect. It is important for powerful countries to remember that.

Diplomacy is a far better way to solve inter-country problems than force. It doesn't create the same kind of resentment, the effects tend to last far longer, and it's way cheaper.

We're probably working on the wrong problems. With an Earth whose carrying capacity we're exploring, the primary topics seem to be open trade and the free flow of money among rich nations. His point was that the carrying capacity of the Earth was a more important topic.

Security is still a challenge -- not just against terrorism, but against natural disasters, especially when their effects are exacerbated by decisions (e.g. the Fukushima reactor right close to the tsunami).

He regularly returned to the point about countries not being the same, and not wanting to be "junior partners" with lesser influence in one-on-one situations.

He said that he's been criticized for "giving away Poland and Hungary." His comeback to that was "well, who did I give them away to?" The point (to me at least) being that countries should be able to make their own political decisions, that not everyone will agree with them, but that nevertheless it's those countries decision to make. Obviously with Putin in power in Russia, that's a telling point . But he brought it up in context with Russia's position on Syria as well -- that it's an internal conflict, and that Russia's position of supporting the legal government of Syria is an extension of that. Yeah, I'm not so sure on that. OTOH, Gorbachev has a lot more experience with international diplomacy than I do.

Anyway, it was really, really interesting to hear him speak. I was also incredibly impressed by his translator. I speak Portuguese well enough to be a translator, but I absolutely do not have the type of focus necessary to listen to someone saying something, while translating it (being a few words behind, of course -- enough to get the context and speak correctly, not just doing word-for-word). Wow.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[okalb 104]

Everything you/he said is interesting to say the least. The problem is that some of the lunatics on the extreme right will take the speech and twist it. They will turn it into "You see, the Russians are endorsing Obama, we told you he was a communist." Intelligent, thinking people understand what he is saying. The problem is that there seem to be fewer and fewer of those around lately.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[RonD1120 62]

Good post, thank you for sharing it. I always liked him but fell short of Gorbasms.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

Quote

Everything you/he said is interesting to say the least. The problem is that some of the lunatics on the extreme right will take the speech and twist it. They will turn it into "You see, the Russians are endorsing Obama, we told you he was a communist." Intelligent, thinking people understand what he is saying. The problem is that there seem to be fewer and fewer of those around lately.

Well, I'm on the extreme right and I understood it.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

The problem is that some of the lunatics on the extreme right will take the speech and twist it.

yes, only the extreme right will do that
the extreme left never twists or spins things


we have zero examples where the two parties, in an election year, have spun current events or incidents or speeches or ..........., to try to put their own side in the most positive light and the other side in a negative light

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[okalb 104]

Quote

Quote

The problem is that some of the lunatics on the extreme right will take the speech and twist it.

yes, only the extreme right will do that
the extreme left never twists or spins things


we have zero examples where the two parties, in an election year, have spun current events or incidents or speeches or ..........., to try to put their own side in the most positive light and the other side in a negative light

That is not what I said. The far left does it as much as the far right, I agree with that. I was referring to this particular speech. Given the person that made it, I can see many on the right using it as proof that Obama is a communist.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[Skyrad 0]

Would have loved to have been there, thanks for sharing Wendy.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Gravitymaster 0]

http://iphone.france24.com/en/20121102-china-japan-citizens-back-obama-second-term-poll-shows

Well, the Chinese support him so we don't need no stinking Russians to prove Obamas a communist.

[wmw999 2,587]

Enemy-of-my-enemy people are so easy; just like a knee-jerk is easy.

And yeah, your tongue is probably hurting your cheek by now

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Quote

Quote

The problem is that some of the lunatics on the extreme right will take the speech and twist it.

yes, only the extreme right will do that
the extreme left never twists or spins things


we have zero examples where the two parties, in an election year, have spun current events or incidents or speeches or ..........., to try to put their own side in the most positive light and the other side in a negative light

That is not what I said. The far left does it as much as the far right, I agree with that. I was referring to this particular speech. Given the person that made it, I can see many on the right using it as proof that Obama is a communist.

ok - I get that


(I'm really sorry, as I know the normal speaker's corner tactic is to respond that now you're backpedaling, and that you're fanatically partisan, and that etc etc etc - and then we bicker for a page or two about what you REALLY meant and then suck in Rush and Kallend and a couple others with the normal crap, and then a couple other regular crowd leaps in with the normal vitriol,............. but, I believe you, and I hate that tactic)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jakee 1,594]

Quote

http://iphone.france24.com/en/20121102-china-japan-citizens-back-obama-second-term-poll-shows

Well, the Chinese support him so we don't need no stinking Russians to prove Obamas a communist.

... and for the first time ever, the american right gives a damn what the rest of the world thinks

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[brenthutch 444]

"He regularly returned to the point about countries not being the same, and not wanting to be "junior partners" with lesser influence in one-on-one situations."

Nobody wants to be "little brother" (just ask my little brothers). But the fact is, Russia is a tired old empire, with a stagnant economy, rampant corruption, declining population regional strife, and as a result, diminished influence. I agree that they don’t like it but there it is. They should be happy with the power they do have.
The veto power they wield on the Security Council is out of all proportion to their economic, political, military and cultural influence. The USSR did not decide to dissolve because Gorbechev was a nice guy. I do agree that he oversaw the collapse of the Soviet Union in a peaceful manner. Nobody thought that possible.

[wmw999 2,587]

The funny thing about little brothers is that sometimes they get bigger, and then they tend to remember how the big brother treated them.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[GeorgiaDon 379]

Quote

The funny thing about little brothers is that sometimes they get bigger, and then they tend to remember how the big brother treated them.

Wendy P.

Yep; also people tend to have long memories of how they have been treated at the hands of puppet leaders/dictators installed by outsiders. Witness Iran, for example, where the current anti-US leadership is in large part a reaction to the excesses of the CIA-installed Shah. Also it seems many of our more conservative fellow inmates here in Speaker's Corner expect that a US president who is a "real leader" should be able to demand and obtain concessions from foreign leaders. In reality, the best results are obtained when our president can convince foreign leaders that their interests are the same as our interests. Failing that, we should always be careful to leave the foreign leader with a "face saving" way out if we really want to get them to do our bidding. Putting leaders in a no-win situation where they not only have to back down, but also have to be seen to be backing down, can result in a response where they refuse to back down even to the point of going to war (as an example, the way Bush backed Saddam Hussein into a corner where the only alternatives were war or humiliation). Of course, in that case war was probably Bush's intended outcome from the start. Also it seems in some circles that "asking nicely", or even worse "negotiating" (which is suspiciously close to "compromising") is seen as a sign of a weak leader.

In any event, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is probably a good idea in international diplomacy, as it is in dealings between individuals.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)