A word on electric cars

[brenthutch 444]

It has been suggested by some on this forum that I am a Luddite who hates technology. Nothing could be further from the truth. I would love to by an electric car and I WILL one day, when they produce 300 BHP, cost less and are more reliable that gasoline powered vehicles.
My beef with the current (pardon the pun) offerings is that they are horrible cars and are poisoning the well for the day when the technology has matured to the point where they are truly competitive. Why does pretending otherwise make any sense? OK I know that Justin Bieber has one, and that may be enough for some on this forum but it’s not enough for me. I would rather get my advice from Consumer Reports.

http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2012/09/fisker-karma-earns-a-failing-grade-from-consumer-reports.html

[livendive 8]

Quote

My beef with the current (pardon the pun) offerings is that they are horrible cars and are poisoning the well for the day when the technology has matured to the point where they are truly competitive.

Except that's how technology develops...get it functional, put it out there, see what works and what doesn't, and improve on it. Do you think computers would be where they are today if their development had occurred entirely in a vacuum? Or aviation, or, well, anything? Markets drive innovation. With no market, it'll either be tremendously stifled or completely non-existent.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[kallend 2,150]

For many years I have flown R/C airplanes and helicopters. Back around 1990 the first electric powered models became available. They were heavy and lacked power, but I (and others) persisted with them. Constant evolution resulted in lighter and more energy efficient batteries, controllers and motors. 2 weekends ago I attended a helicopter event, where it was very clear that the electric machines are now outperforming the nitro powered helis. Not by a little, but by a large amount.

I am quite sure that electric cars are on a steep learning curve and will improve a lot over the next few years, but only if we persist with them and don't constantly badmouth the current (pun intended) generation.

We don't criticize Columbus for not coming to the New World in a 787, or Edison for not inventing the LED lightbulb.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skypuppy 1]

actually in certain circles, Edison, Ford, the wright brothers and all those guys get a lot of flack for NOT having invented things, but by either buying or stealing the rights, shutting down competition and basically bleeding everyone dry to become 'super men' of finance.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[lurch 0]

This.
When I was in my teens I built my own RC cars from wrecks and junk. I tended to build em with oversized Mabuchi motors out of Powerwheels toys and run them on homemade battery packs.

At the time the best Sanyo hi-cap ni-cads were in the 1800 maH range for size sub-c standard and most topped out at 1200. I made a 7-cell pack out of size D Sanyos at 4400 maH for endurance... it took the form of a trailer the car towed behind it and it weighed a couple pounds.

Electric flying RCs of any kind did not exist and could not. The power density simply did not exist.

Fast forward 20 years and I can get a li-po charger pack for my phone that stores 3900 maH fits in my pocket and weighs a few ounces. Disposable flying electric RC toys are now common and even the cheap crap will fly for 7-15 minutes. I just came across another, bigger phone charger, stores 11,000 maH and still fits in a pocket, if somewhat bulky.

A couple years ago I fabricated a wearable motorcycle/iron man mobile armor suit kind of deal powered by dual chainsaws. It worked (barely) but I had to set it aside as a crude prototype, no time to continue project. By the time I resume that one it may be cheaper to go electric than internal combustion and would certainly be FAR more elegant. Load it up with li-pos and brushless controllers and away we go.

Give it time. Another 20 years and you should be able to buy an electric compact that blows the doors off a Camaro and does 300 miles per charge. The neat thing about sci-fi is, it has a habit of becoming real. Since my childhood, a great deal of it HAS.
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[brenthutch 444]

"Markets drive innovation"

And government intervention distorts markets.

[billvon 3,120]

>My beef with the current (pardon the pun) offerings is that they are
>horrible cars

I take it you have never driven a Tesla.

[billvon 3,120]

>Another 20 years and you should be able to buy an electric compact that
>blows the doors off a Camaro and does 300 miles per charge.

We have that right now; it's just too expensive for the mainstream market. But like you said give it 20 years.

[brenthutch 444]

Quote

>My beef with the current (pardon the pun) offerings is that they are
>horrible cars

I take it you have never driven a Tesla.

This Tesla?

http://jalopnik.com/5887265/tesla-motors-devastating-design-problem

"If the battery is ever totally discharged, the owner is left with what Tesla describes as a "brick": a completely immobile vehicle that cannot be started or even pushed down the street. The only known remedy is for the owner to pay Tesla approximately $40,000 to replace the entire battery"

[billvon 3,120]

>This Tesla?

Yep, that Tesla. It will blow the doors off 99% of the cars on the road. Range of 300 miles. That one.

[brenthutch 444]

Age-Old Mirage

Electric vehicles were in wide use before gasoline proved to be superior more than a century ago. In a famous exchange in 1896, none other than Thomas Edison gave confirmation to Henry Ford to go with his internal combustion engine. Edison to the budding engineer:


Young man, that’s the thing; you have it. Keep at it. Electric cars must keep near to power stations. The storage battery is too heavy. Steam cars won’t do, either, for they require a boiler and fire. Your car is self-contained—carries its own power plant—no fire, no boiler, no smoke and no steam. You have the thing. Keep at it.

Henry Ford remembered:


The man who knew most about electricity in the world had said that for the purpose my gas motor was better than any electric motor could be—it could go long distances, he said, and there would be stations to supply the cars with hydro-carbon. That was the first time I ever heard this term for liquid fuel. And this at a time when all the electrical engineers took it as an established fact that there could be nothing new and worthwhile that did not run by electricity. It was to be the universal power.

And so, 116 years later, and hundreds of millions of government dollars later, Thomas Edison was right and electric cars are wrong.

[shah269 0]

it's a good idea it will take a few years for it to become viable. but to get there and if we wish to be the leaders a bit of government help is needed.

think of it this way, an M1 gets 2mpg. If we could get 4mpg iran would be worried!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[livendive 8]

Quote

Age-Old Mirage

Electric vehicles were in wide use before gasoline proved to be superior more than a century ago. In a famous exchange in 1896, none other than Thomas Edison gave confirmation to Henry Ford to go with his internal combustion engine. Edison to the budding engineer:


Young man, that’s the thing; you have it. Keep at it. Electric cars must keep near to power stations. The storage battery is too heavy. Steam cars won’t do, either, for they require a boiler and fire. Your car is self-contained—carries its own power plant—no fire, no boiler, no smoke and no steam. You have the thing. Keep at it.

Henry Ford remembered:


The man who knew most about electricity in the world had said that for the purpose my gas motor was better than any electric motor could be—it could go long distances, he said, and there would be stations to supply the cars with hydro-carbon. That was the first time I ever heard this term for liquid fuel. And this at a time when all the electrical engineers took it as an established fact that there could be nothing new and worthwhile that did not run by electricity. It was to be the universal power.

And so, 116 years later, and hundreds of millions of government dollars later, Thomas Edison was right and electric cars are wrong.

He didn't seem to think internal COMBUSTION engines involved fire or smoke, yet you're touting him as infallible? He would have also argued that hot air balloons were the best form of aviation, but oddly enough, technology has evolved since then.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billvon 3,120]

> Electric cars must keep near to power stations.

Yep. When all you have are lead acid batteries that's true. Fortunately technology moves on.

[brenthutch 444]

No, just a cute anecdote, to illustrate that electric cars have been evolving longer than gasoline powered cars, and they are still way behind.

[billvon 3,120]

>to illustrate that electric cars have been evolving longer than
>gasoline powered cars, and they are still way behind.

So is DC power transmission. (Which, ironically, was something else that Edison was wrong about.) Still, betting against long distance DC power transmission is probably a bad idea - since we now have technology that Edison didn't have.

[brenthutch 444]

Quote

>to illustrate that electric cars have been evolving longer than
>gasoline powered cars, and they are still way behind.

So is DC power transmission. (Which, ironically, was something else that Edison was wrong about.) Still, betting against long distance DC power transmission is probably a bad idea - since we now have technology that Edison didn't have.

Second degree black belt awarded!

[billvon 3,120]

"Those who do not study history are condemned to repeat it."

[brenthutch 444]

We see that with the EV-1 and the subsequent Volt

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Quote

No, just a cute anecdote, to illustrate that electric cars have been evolving longer than gasoline powered cars, and they are still way behind.

I don't see how electric cars "evolved" at all from (roughly) the twenties until the seventies.
The only applications that were developed in any real way were industrial and recreational (forklifts and golf carts), and were both lead-acid battery technology.
I am not aware of any road capable cars that were produced beyond a prototype level, with the exception of the "City Car", which was nothing more than forklift technology adapted to the road.

The real evolution was the EV-1, which was pretty primative. And even that one cost somewhere above $200k, which is why it was leased, not sold. The returned vehicles were stripped of the expensive electronics, and then the empty shells scrapped (except for a few that went, minus electronics, to museums).

The Volt is the next step. Early adopters will find it less than perfect. Those willing to wait for the evolution to take a few more steps will get a better model.

Rechargable batteries didn't really exist until the space program needed them, and that was slow to develop until fairly recently.
The current revolution in battery technology is rather amazing. Lurch and Professor Kallend are right. The increase in capacity and "C" (charge/discharge rates) is incredible. The decrease in size and weight is the same.
Much of this has come about because of portable electronics, but it has really shown up in Radio Control models. R/C enthusiasts (fanatics?) are willing to be the test pilots for the most advanced batteries. The high cost, delicacy, potential for fire, and other stuff ordinary users (cell phones, laptops, ect.) aren't willing to put up with are a small price to pay to get the perfomance in the sky that the most advanced Li-Po units offer.

And while it's true that a full discharge will destroy a Li-Po, it isn't all that hard to turn an expensive gasoline engine into a chunk of scrap iron (not even usable as a core exchange) by running it without oil.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jgoose71 0]

Yep, tesla's get 300 miles per charge, and they also have technology now where you can get half a charge on your battery in 30 minutes:
http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

As I've posted earlier, battery technology is going to improve even more in the next 3 years. New cathode technology will double existing mileage:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/yonicohen/2012/03/21/envias-energy-dense-battery-could-cut-electric-vehicle-costs/

And other technologies that are going to make electric car batteries stand up to extreme environments:
http://news.discovery.com/autos/a123-battery-breakthrough-120613.html

Like I've said before, people will buy a car for a lot of money if they feel the car is worth it. Chevy fucked up by selling a $16,000 (Cruze) car for $50,000(volt). Audi sells Q7's for $60,000 all day long because they are worth it.

About 3 more years and Tesla will have worked the bugs out and battery technology will have driven the price cheaper, with longer distance and more reliability, and they will sell. You can buy stock now, or wish you did later....

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[skiskyrock 0]

Quote

"Markets drive innovation"

And government intervention distorts markets.

And yet you post this using the internet.

[brenthutch 444]

Quote

Quote

"Markets drive innovation"

And government intervention distorts markets.

And yet you post this using the internet.

The government did not intervene on the internet, it created it for government use, primarily the military, which by the way is an enumerated duty of the Government. Much like the GPS system was created by the Government and private companies subsequently found utility in it. Hardly an apt analogy.

[kd5xb 1]

First, I don't trust Consumer Reports at all. That group lost any confidence I may have had in it when they published a bicycle report giving a NOT RECOMMENDED to a bike because the front brake was strong enough to lock the front wheel.


As for electric vehicles -- I would LOVE to have one, but they're too freaking expensive, and I work 25 miles from my home, so I'm not at all sure they have the range I would need for that commute.

Maybe one day.

I'm a jumper. Even though I don't always have money for jumps, and may not ever own a rig again, I'll always be a jumper.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

As for electric vehicles -- I would LOVE to have one, but they're too freaking expensive, and I work 25 miles from my home, so I'm not at all sure they have the range I would need for that commute.

huh - that's a trivial commute distance...exactly where even the current ones do well.