rushmc 23 #1 September 14, 2012 QuoteThe Obama administration is making it easier for bureaucrats to take away guns without offering the accused any realistic due process. In a final rule published last week, the Justice Department granted the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) authority to “seize and administratively forfeit property involved in controlled-substance abuses.” That means government can grab firearms and other property from someone who has never been convicted or even charged with any crime. It’s a dangerous extension of the civil-forfeiture doctrine, a surreal legal fiction in which the seized property — not a person — is put on trial. This allows prosecutors to dispense with pesky constitutional rights, which conveniently don’t apply to inanimate objects. In this looking-glass world, the owner is effectively guilty until proved innocent and has the burden of proving otherwise. Anyone falsely accused will never see his property again unless he succeeds in an expensive uphill legal battle. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/sep/6/atfs-latest-gun-grab/"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 380 #2 September 14, 2012 I've long thought that civil forfeiture should be ruled unconstitutional. Property should be forfeited only after a criminal conviction, IMO. The practice of seizing property from people who have never even been charged with a crime, much less convicted, is nothing more than legalized theft. I also don't understand why we still have an ATF. Surely their legitimate enforcement/regulatory responsibilities could be delegated to the FBI and USDA, and much of the administrative redundancy eliminated? Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #3 September 14, 2012 Why the obsession with guns. The govt. steals confiscates airplanes, helicopters, cars, trucks and boats and has done for years. All part of the "war on drugs".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #4 September 14, 2012 QuoteI've long thought that civil forfeiture should be ruled unconstitutional. Property should be forfeited only after a criminal conviction, IMO. The practice of seizing property from people who have never even been charged with a crime, much less convicted, is nothing more than legalized theft. I agree 100%. This is absolutely a travesty. Another reason to oppose the war on drugs. Both parties are complicit in this horrible denial of basic due process."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rick 67 #5 September 14, 2012 Quote Why the obsession with guns. The govt. steals confiscates airplanes, helicopters, cars, trucks and boats and has done for years. All part of the "war on drugs". This was a big issue in Volusia county Florida several years ago. I believe one year they seized over 8 million in cash.You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #6 September 14, 2012 I have no problem w/ civil forfeiture if somebody has been convicted of a crime and the property can be shown to be instrumental in that crime. The way the law is currently written and implemented is insane. If you are a landlord and one of your tenants uses your property to manufacture meth or sell pot your property can be seized even if you have no knowledge of the underlying crime. That's wrong."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #7 September 14, 2012 Subject line is misleading.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #8 September 14, 2012 QuoteSubject line is misleading. No its not"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #9 September 14, 2012 QuoteQuoteSubject line is misleading. No its not It absolutly is. The law has no specific "gun grabbing" provisions. It's going after all property of suspected criminals in genneral. The Washington Times is a horrible fish wrap. I don't know why you even bother reading it.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #10 September 14, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteSubject line is misleading. No its not It absolutly is. The law has no specific "gun grabbing" provisions. It's going after all property of suspected criminals in genneral. Key word Suspected And you have to fight to get it back even if you are never charged Nice policy you support But then this follows right in the foot steps of the Martin Zimmerman case for big gov lefties"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #11 September 14, 2012 I didn't say I supported it. I said the subject line was misleading.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #12 September 14, 2012 QuoteI didn't say I supported it. I said the subject line was misleading. If I agreed with you then we would both be wrong"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #13 September 14, 2012 Really? Rush, when you post something like that, which can be absolutly verified by simply scrolling back a couple of posts, you look silly.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #14 September 14, 2012 QuoteReally? Rush, when you post something like that, which can be absolutly verified by simply scrolling back a couple of posts, you look silly. I know It is really dificult to have your own tactics used back at ya That is the point"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #15 September 14, 2012 Rush, you are unique. Absolutely unique in your interpretation of the written word. I do not know how it's even possible for you to believe you're somehow "winning" here.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #16 September 14, 2012 QuoteRush, you are unique. Absolutely unique in your interpretation of the written word. I do not know how it's even possible for you to believe you're somehow "winning" here. Winning? Where did anyone post that before you did now? It is not about winning IMO Not so for you? BTW, we are all unique"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #17 September 14, 2012 Oh You decided to comment only on the source What people usually do when they cant argue a good point against the content you wrote QuoteIt absolutly is. The law has no specific "gun grabbing" provisions. It's going after all property of suspected criminals in genneral. The Washington Times is a horrible fish wrap. I don't know why you even bother reading it. The ATF has been given expanded powers to grap your stuff without due process You must be ok with that (regardless of what you posted) becuase you attacked my post and the link Uniqueness abounds here I guess"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #18 September 14, 2012 Quote Why the obsession with guns. The govt. steals confiscates airplanes, helicopters, cars, trucks and boats and has done for years. All part of the "war on drugs". Yes, this has long been a problem. Rush is reporting on yet another expansion of this problem. (*also been used against Johns cruising for hookers) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #19 September 14, 2012 QuoteSubject line is misleading. First of all, tell that to the Washington Times. Second, it's not. Third, why should the ATF be granted ANY special powers for something that's not even in their jurisdiction?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #20 September 14, 2012 QuoteQuoteSubject line is misleading. First of all, tell that to the Washington Times. Second, it's not. Third, why should the ATF be granted ANY special powers for something that's not even in their jurisdiction? BATFE seems to have a propensity to act outside of its locus of authority, going back many years.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #21 September 14, 2012 QuoteOh You decided to comment only on the source What people usually do when they cant argue a good point against the content you wrote QuoteIt absolutly is. The law has no specific "gun grabbing" provisions. It's going after all property of suspected criminals in genneral. The Washington Times is a horrible fish wrap. I don't know why you even bother reading it. The ATF has been given expanded powers to grap your stuff without due process You must be ok with that (regardless of what you posted) becuase you attacked my post and the link "Alice in Wonderland" is not a text book on logic, Marc.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #22 September 16, 2012 Well, considering that Federal Forfeiture was enacted under a Republican Administration in 1970 (Nixon) as part of RICO, I would think that your side would be applauding."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #23 September 16, 2012 Quoteif you are involved in crime you shouldn't have a gun Personally I think a gun is the most efficient tool for a crime spree, but that's just me.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zep 0 #24 September 16, 2012 Quote Personally I think a gun is the most efficient tool for a crime spree, but that's just me. You don't need a gun for a crime spree, just look at the ceo's bankers, lawyers and politicians, they do it on a daily basis without guns. Gone fishing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #25 September 16, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteif you are involved in crime you shouldn't have a gun Personally I think a gun is the most efficient tool for a crime spree, but that's just me. You don't need a gun for a crime spree, just look at the ceo's bankers, lawyers and politicians, they do it on a daily basis without guns. You are referring to white-collar crime. A crime spree is a series of crimes committed in quick succession. They are typically violent in nature - you better have a gun.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
