billvon 3,114 #151 September 6, 2012 > Fossil-fuel, based energy has a greater level of depletion than the nuclear industry. If >you want to make a special carve out to punish an industry you find objectionable, that >is fine. But don’t pretend you are doing otherwise. So you would have no objection to passing a law that explicitly treats the oil industry the same as any other industry, with no special tax exemptions? If so then we agree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 444 #152 September 7, 2012 Whole heartedly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,147 #153 September 7, 2012 QuoteWhole heartedly So your WHINING about taxpayer subsidies for the VOLT while ignoring taxpayer subsidies for gas guzzlers was exactly that, WHINING. Got it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 444 #154 September 7, 2012 So, you don't understand the difference between the government taking less and giving more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,147 #155 September 7, 2012 QuoteSo, you don't understand the difference between the government taking less and giving more. So you don't understand basic math: -(-1) = +1... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 444 #156 September 7, 2012 QuoteQuoteSo, you don't understand the difference between the government taking less and giving more. So you don't understand basic math: -(-1) = +1 Clearly, you don’t Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,147 #157 September 7, 2012 Quote Quote Quote So, you don't understand the difference between the government taking less and giving more. So you don't understand basic math: -(-1) = +1 Clearly, you don’t QED ... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
richravizza 28 #158 September 7, 2012 Any mention of a bridge Fuel like Nat Gas? The NG hona Civic is priced a Couple Grand more than gas, the Volts pay off is 10 yrs. NG civic have 30% less emissions, 36-40MPG with a cheaper fuel than the Highbred. Domestic, Clean Cheap fuel for a century or more. Big Nasty Class A deisles need to blaze the trail for distribution,& adoption to the masses. I burn it /breathe it every day I Cook. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #159 September 7, 2012 Quote>But it will make things like electricity more expensive And by having electricity compete with oil prices, consumers pay less overall for their transportation energy. The power grid is already in trouble. Has been for a while. The generating capacity is not increasing with the usage. But it's not even the generation that is the big problem: it's the distribution system itself that could use significant overhaul. Electric cars are a good idea and useful in a number of circumstances. But I think that if the government is prioritizing them that a broader plan including the entire electrical system should be brought forth. The electrical system needs upgrading. By encouraging that to happen, then moving towards more electric vehicles can be easier. Just a side thought... My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,147 #160 September 7, 2012 QuoteQuote>But it will make things like electricity more expensive And by having electricity compete with oil prices, consumers pay less overall for their transportation energy. The power grid is already in trouble. Has been for a while. The generating capacity is not increasing with the usage. But it's not even the generation that is the big problem: it's the distribution system itself that could use significant overhaul. Tell that to Marc Rush. He told us not long ago that spending money on upgrading the grid is "pork".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #161 September 7, 2012 Quote Quote Quote >But it will make things like electricity more expensive And by having electricity compete with oil prices, consumers pay less overall for their transportation energy. The power grid is already in trouble. Has been for a while. The generating capacity is not increasing with the usage. But it's not even the generation that is the big problem: it's the distribution system itself that could use significant overhaul. Tell that to Marc Rush. He told us not long ago that spending money on upgrading the grid is "pork". You had better go find that quote junior"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brenthutch 444 #162 September 13, 2012 http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/gms-volt-is-on-the-road-to-nowhere/2012/09/12/29cd8216-fd0d-11e1-a31e-804fccb658f9_story.html "As these companies flail, they are taking the much-ballyhooed U.S. advanced-battery industry down with them. A Chinese company had to buy out distressed A123, to which the Energy Department has committed $263 million in production aid and research money. Ener1, which ran through $55 million of a $118 million federal grant before going bankrupt, sold out to a Russian tycoon. No matter how you slice it, the American taxpayer has gotten precious little for the administration’s investment in battery-powered vehicles, in terms of permanent jobs or lower carbon dioxide emissions." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,147 #163 September 13, 2012 Quotehttp://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/gms-volt-is-on-the-road-to-nowhere/2012/09/12/29cd8216-fd0d-11e1-a31e-804fccb658f9_story.html "As these companies flail, they are taking the much-ballyhooed U.S. advanced-battery industry down with them. A Chinese company had to buy out distressed A123, to which the Energy Department has committed $263 million in production aid and research money. Ener1, which ran through $55 million of a $118 million federal grant before going bankrupt, sold out to a Russian tycoon. No matter how you slice it, the American taxpayer has gotten precious little for the administration’s investment in battery-powered vehicles, in terms of permanent jobs or lower carbon dioxide emissions." What does that have to do with upgrading the power grid?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,114 #164 September 13, 2012 1906: " . . .we feel fairly certain that besides the danger and injury inflicted, these `devil wagons’ (i.e. cars) will lose the merchants of the town thousands of dollars worth of trade, because the country people will not, and justly so, risk their lives, coming or going from town, by meeting one of these machines." “If we have to put up with them, drivers of horses will be driven off the roads. Drivers of horses are mostly on business. Has the whole county, whose people built the roads for their own use in order to do their work, to put up with these jaunters?" There will always be people who don't want technology to advance. But it does anyway, and it generally leaves those people behind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brenthutch 444 #165 September 13, 2012 QuoteQuotehttp://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/gms-volt-is-on-the-road-to-nowhere/2012/09/12/29cd8216-fd0d-11e1-a31e-804fccb658f9_story.html "As these companies flail, they are taking the much-ballyhooed U.S. advanced-battery industry down with them. A Chinese company had to buy out distressed A123, to which the Energy Department has committed $263 million in production aid and research money. Ener1, which ran through $55 million of a $118 million federal grant before going bankrupt, sold out to a Russian tycoon. No matter how you slice it, the American taxpayer has gotten precious little for the administration’s investment in battery-powered vehicles, in terms of permanent jobs or lower carbon dioxide emissions." What does that have to do with upgrading the power grid? What does upgrading the power grid have to do with the Volt being a total POS and waste of taxpayer money? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,147 #166 September 13, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuotehttp://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/gms-volt-is-on-the-road-to-nowhere/2012/09/12/29cd8216-fd0d-11e1-a31e-804fccb658f9_story.html "As these companies flail, they are taking the much-ballyhooed U.S. advanced-battery industry down with them. A Chinese company had to buy out distressed A123, to which the Energy Department has committed $263 million in production aid and research money. Ener1, which ran through $55 million of a $118 million federal grant before going bankrupt, sold out to a Russian tycoon. No matter how you slice it, the American taxpayer has gotten precious little for the administration’s investment in battery-powered vehicles, in terms of permanent jobs or lower carbon dioxide emissions." What does that have to do with upgrading the power grid? What does upgrading the power grid have to do with the Volt being a total POS and waste of taxpayer money? You tell me. You "Replied to" my post about the power grid. Having trouble keeping track of the conversation? Short attention span? One track mind?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brenthutch 444 #167 September 13, 2012 Quote1906: " . . .we feel fairly certain that besides the danger and injury inflicted, these `devil wagons’ (i.e. cars) will lose the merchants of the town thousands of dollars worth of trade, because the country people will not, and justly so, risk their lives, coming or going from town, by meeting one of these machines." “If we have to put up with them, drivers of horses will be driven off the roads. Drivers of horses are mostly on business. Has the whole county, whose people built the roads for their own use in order to do their work, to put up with these jaunters?" There will always be people who don't want technology to advance. But it does anyway, and it generally leaves those people behind. I like technology; I am a big tech fan. In State College, all of the public transportation runs on natural gas not diesel. No stink, no soot, cheap, abundant; I am a big fan. However, that doesn’t stop me from laughing at anyone on a Segway, or in a Smart car or Volt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brenthutch 444 #168 September 13, 2012 No, it is my thread about the Volt; somehow you got confused and made nonsensical replies. I just wanted to get you back on track. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,114 #169 September 13, 2012 >Electric cars are a good idea and useful in a number of circumstances. But I think that >if the government is prioritizing them that a broader plan including the entire electrical >system should be brought forth. The electrical system needs upgrading. By >encouraging that to happen, then moving towards more electric vehicles can be easier. Definitely agreed there. Upgrading the grid makes electrical power more reliable, cleaner and (once the infrastructure is in place) cheaper. HVDC transmission has allowed the same transmission lines to carry more power, and more exotic transmission technologies like high temperature superconductors could carry a LOT more power for the same size transmission system. In the short term, since most EV's currently charge at night due to TOU pricing, we won't hit the limits of the transmission system until we replace a large fraction of the car fleet (15% in California.) In the long term we'll need a better distribution system and/or more local generation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brenthutch 444 #170 September 13, 2012 Three paragraphs and no mention of the topic of the thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,114 #171 September 13, 2012 >Three paragraphs and no mention of the topic of the thread. Feel free to ignore the subsequent posts that are not to your liking. I often enjoy talking about issues like this with Lawrocket; if such conversations are not to your liking, I am sure there is an anti-Obama thread here you could contribute to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brenthutch 444 #172 September 14, 2012 The point is not whether or not I like the subsequent posts. It is whether or not they are germane to the topic at hand. I know that you don't like it when I bring up topics which conflict with your world view, and that you are keen to move off topic as soon as possible. (As demonstrated by the "where is the raw climate data post” which devolve into a "Christians hate science" rant.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #173 September 14, 2012 Quote>Electric cars are a good idea and useful in a number of circumstances. But I think that >if the government is prioritizing them that a broader plan including the entire electrical >system should be brought forth. The electrical system needs upgrading. By >encouraging that to happen, then moving towards more electric vehicles can be easier. Definitely agreed there. Upgrading the grid makes electrical power more reliable, cleaner and (once the infrastructure is in place) cheaper. HVDC transmission has allowed the same transmission lines to carry more power, and more exotic transmission technologies like high temperature superconductors could carry a LOT more power for the same size transmission system. In the short term, since most EV's currently charge at night due to TOU pricing, we won't hit the limits of the transmission system until we replace a large fraction of the car fleet (15% in California.) In the long term we'll need a better distribution system and/or more local generation. Much more money would be available if the country was not wasting so much money on wind and solar"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #174 September 14, 2012 Quote Much more money would be available if the country was not wasting so much money on wind and solar We've already covered how the oil industry gets far more money, yet is one of the most profitable industries out there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #175 September 14, 2012 QuoteQuote Much more money would be available if the country was not wasting so much money on wind and solar We've already covered how the oil industry gets far more money, yet is one of the most profitable industries out there. I am not talking about the tax breaks or fed dollars I am talking about the waste of corp capital dollars"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Next Page 7 of 12 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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rushmc 23 #161 September 7, 2012 Quote Quote Quote >But it will make things like electricity more expensive And by having electricity compete with oil prices, consumers pay less overall for their transportation energy. The power grid is already in trouble. Has been for a while. The generating capacity is not increasing with the usage. But it's not even the generation that is the big problem: it's the distribution system itself that could use significant overhaul. Tell that to Marc Rush. He told us not long ago that spending money on upgrading the grid is "pork". You had better go find that quote junior"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 444 #162 September 13, 2012 http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/gms-volt-is-on-the-road-to-nowhere/2012/09/12/29cd8216-fd0d-11e1-a31e-804fccb658f9_story.html "As these companies flail, they are taking the much-ballyhooed U.S. advanced-battery industry down with them. A Chinese company had to buy out distressed A123, to which the Energy Department has committed $263 million in production aid and research money. Ener1, which ran through $55 million of a $118 million federal grant before going bankrupt, sold out to a Russian tycoon. No matter how you slice it, the American taxpayer has gotten precious little for the administration’s investment in battery-powered vehicles, in terms of permanent jobs or lower carbon dioxide emissions." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,147 #163 September 13, 2012 Quotehttp://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/gms-volt-is-on-the-road-to-nowhere/2012/09/12/29cd8216-fd0d-11e1-a31e-804fccb658f9_story.html "As these companies flail, they are taking the much-ballyhooed U.S. advanced-battery industry down with them. A Chinese company had to buy out distressed A123, to which the Energy Department has committed $263 million in production aid and research money. Ener1, which ran through $55 million of a $118 million federal grant before going bankrupt, sold out to a Russian tycoon. No matter how you slice it, the American taxpayer has gotten precious little for the administration’s investment in battery-powered vehicles, in terms of permanent jobs or lower carbon dioxide emissions." What does that have to do with upgrading the power grid?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,114 #164 September 13, 2012 1906: " . . .we feel fairly certain that besides the danger and injury inflicted, these `devil wagons’ (i.e. cars) will lose the merchants of the town thousands of dollars worth of trade, because the country people will not, and justly so, risk their lives, coming or going from town, by meeting one of these machines." “If we have to put up with them, drivers of horses will be driven off the roads. Drivers of horses are mostly on business. Has the whole county, whose people built the roads for their own use in order to do their work, to put up with these jaunters?" There will always be people who don't want technology to advance. But it does anyway, and it generally leaves those people behind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 444 #165 September 13, 2012 QuoteQuotehttp://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/gms-volt-is-on-the-road-to-nowhere/2012/09/12/29cd8216-fd0d-11e1-a31e-804fccb658f9_story.html "As these companies flail, they are taking the much-ballyhooed U.S. advanced-battery industry down with them. A Chinese company had to buy out distressed A123, to which the Energy Department has committed $263 million in production aid and research money. Ener1, which ran through $55 million of a $118 million federal grant before going bankrupt, sold out to a Russian tycoon. No matter how you slice it, the American taxpayer has gotten precious little for the administration’s investment in battery-powered vehicles, in terms of permanent jobs or lower carbon dioxide emissions." What does that have to do with upgrading the power grid? What does upgrading the power grid have to do with the Volt being a total POS and waste of taxpayer money? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,147 #166 September 13, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuotehttp://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/gms-volt-is-on-the-road-to-nowhere/2012/09/12/29cd8216-fd0d-11e1-a31e-804fccb658f9_story.html "As these companies flail, they are taking the much-ballyhooed U.S. advanced-battery industry down with them. A Chinese company had to buy out distressed A123, to which the Energy Department has committed $263 million in production aid and research money. Ener1, which ran through $55 million of a $118 million federal grant before going bankrupt, sold out to a Russian tycoon. No matter how you slice it, the American taxpayer has gotten precious little for the administration’s investment in battery-powered vehicles, in terms of permanent jobs or lower carbon dioxide emissions." What does that have to do with upgrading the power grid? What does upgrading the power grid have to do with the Volt being a total POS and waste of taxpayer money? You tell me. You "Replied to" my post about the power grid. Having trouble keeping track of the conversation? Short attention span? One track mind?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 444 #167 September 13, 2012 Quote1906: " . . .we feel fairly certain that besides the danger and injury inflicted, these `devil wagons’ (i.e. cars) will lose the merchants of the town thousands of dollars worth of trade, because the country people will not, and justly so, risk their lives, coming or going from town, by meeting one of these machines." “If we have to put up with them, drivers of horses will be driven off the roads. Drivers of horses are mostly on business. Has the whole county, whose people built the roads for their own use in order to do their work, to put up with these jaunters?" There will always be people who don't want technology to advance. But it does anyway, and it generally leaves those people behind. I like technology; I am a big tech fan. In State College, all of the public transportation runs on natural gas not diesel. No stink, no soot, cheap, abundant; I am a big fan. However, that doesn’t stop me from laughing at anyone on a Segway, or in a Smart car or Volt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 444 #168 September 13, 2012 No, it is my thread about the Volt; somehow you got confused and made nonsensical replies. I just wanted to get you back on track. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,114 #169 September 13, 2012 >Electric cars are a good idea and useful in a number of circumstances. But I think that >if the government is prioritizing them that a broader plan including the entire electrical >system should be brought forth. The electrical system needs upgrading. By >encouraging that to happen, then moving towards more electric vehicles can be easier. Definitely agreed there. Upgrading the grid makes electrical power more reliable, cleaner and (once the infrastructure is in place) cheaper. HVDC transmission has allowed the same transmission lines to carry more power, and more exotic transmission technologies like high temperature superconductors could carry a LOT more power for the same size transmission system. In the short term, since most EV's currently charge at night due to TOU pricing, we won't hit the limits of the transmission system until we replace a large fraction of the car fleet (15% in California.) In the long term we'll need a better distribution system and/or more local generation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 444 #170 September 13, 2012 Three paragraphs and no mention of the topic of the thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,114 #171 September 13, 2012 >Three paragraphs and no mention of the topic of the thread. Feel free to ignore the subsequent posts that are not to your liking. I often enjoy talking about issues like this with Lawrocket; if such conversations are not to your liking, I am sure there is an anti-Obama thread here you could contribute to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 444 #172 September 14, 2012 The point is not whether or not I like the subsequent posts. It is whether or not they are germane to the topic at hand. I know that you don't like it when I bring up topics which conflict with your world view, and that you are keen to move off topic as soon as possible. (As demonstrated by the "where is the raw climate data post” which devolve into a "Christians hate science" rant.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #173 September 14, 2012 Quote>Electric cars are a good idea and useful in a number of circumstances. But I think that >if the government is prioritizing them that a broader plan including the entire electrical >system should be brought forth. The electrical system needs upgrading. By >encouraging that to happen, then moving towards more electric vehicles can be easier. Definitely agreed there. Upgrading the grid makes electrical power more reliable, cleaner and (once the infrastructure is in place) cheaper. HVDC transmission has allowed the same transmission lines to carry more power, and more exotic transmission technologies like high temperature superconductors could carry a LOT more power for the same size transmission system. In the short term, since most EV's currently charge at night due to TOU pricing, we won't hit the limits of the transmission system until we replace a large fraction of the car fleet (15% in California.) In the long term we'll need a better distribution system and/or more local generation. Much more money would be available if the country was not wasting so much money on wind and solar"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #174 September 14, 2012 Quote Much more money would be available if the country was not wasting so much money on wind and solar We've already covered how the oil industry gets far more money, yet is one of the most profitable industries out there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #175 September 14, 2012 QuoteQuote Much more money would be available if the country was not wasting so much money on wind and solar We've already covered how the oil industry gets far more money, yet is one of the most profitable industries out there. I am not talking about the tax breaks or fed dollars I am talking about the waste of corp capital dollars"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
