GM to halt production of the VOLT

[billvon 3,112]

>You're saying the same thing as I, free market or not.

OK. The dynamics of a free market are really not much like the dynamics of a managed market, though.

>IF the buyers don't buy naturally then seller might lower price to gain customers back.

Agreed! Buyers go to a different seller who sells it for less. This drives the price down until it cannot go any lower due to basic costs. That's where we are now.

Like the man said, follow the money. Let's start from light sweet crude, which is around $100 a barrel. From that barrel you can get about 45 gallons of fuel, of which about 20 is gasoline and 10 is diesel. These are the "money crops" - the rest are things like asphalt makings, coke etc that don't make them much money. For the remaining 15 gallons they get around $1 a gallon equivalent.

So that's 30 gallons of fuel from that barrel. Average US costs for gasoline are around $3.30. Subtract taxes and gasoline is sold for around $3.10 a gallon. That means they get $93 per barrel plus $15 for the others - that's $108 per barrel.

That means there is $8 per barrel for transportation, refining and profit.

You're not going to get much lower than that without lowering the price of oil. Consumer organization will not change that unless they significantly reduce the total amount they buy; this reduces the cost of oil since they do not need to spend so much on drilling marginal reserves.

[OHCHUTE 0]

Quote

>You're saying the same thing as I, free market or not.

OK. The dynamics of a free market are really not much like the dynamics of a managed market, though.

>IF the buyers don't buy naturally then seller might lower price to gain customers back.

Agreed! Buyers go to a different seller who sells it for less. This drives the price down until it cannot go any lower due to basic costs. That's where we are now.

Like the man said, follow the money. Let's start from light sweet crude, which is around $100 a barrel. From that barrel you can get about 45 gallons of fuel, of which about 20 is gasoline and 10 is diesel. These are the "money crops" - the rest are things like asphalt makings, coke etc that don't make them much money. For the remaining 15 gallons they get around $1 a gallon equivalent.

So that's 30 gallons of fuel from that barrel. Average US costs for gasoline are around $3.30. Subtract taxes and gasoline is sold for around $3.10 a gallon. That means they get $93 per barrel plus $15 for the others - that's $108 per barrel.

That means there is $8 per barrel for transportation, refining and profit.

You're not going to get much lower than that without lowering the price of oil. Consumer organization will not change that unless they significantly reduce the total amount they buy; this reduces the cost of oil since they do not need to spend so much on drilling marginal reserves.

Oh boy. Are you a college professor. Bad market good market, closed market, market economics lean market, shoddy market etc... The world stops driving forever. What happens to your sweet crude price? Or any price of any form of petroleum no matter what market you choose to label it.

No you won't get enough protestor support to hold off buying gas long enough to get price change as people have to drive to work. Besides gasco can afford not to sell gas if it doesn't worry about selling stock and paying dividends.


OK see you! On to the next one.

[billvon 3,112]

>Are you a college professor.

No, just a guy with access to a PC.

>Bad market good market, closed market, market economics lean market, shoddy
>market etc... The world stops driving forever. What happens to your sweet crude
>price?

It drops somewhat as drillers close down their expensive operations (oil shale, tar sands etc) and use only their cheapest sources. It never returns to historic levels because all the really cheap oil is gone. Also keep in mind that, taking the US as an example, having everyone "stop driving forever" only eliminates about 40% of your demand.

>No you won't get enough protestor support to hold off buying gas long enough to get
>price change as people have to drive to work.

Exactly. People don't want to change.

>Besides gasco can afford not to sell gas if it doesn't worry about selling stock
>and paying dividends.

And paying its taxes, and making its payroll, and maintaining its equipment etc etc. But I agree if that's the case - if a company has no expenses it will not worry as much about selling products, since the upside is more profit but the downside is not bankruptcy.

[brenthutch 444]

So what do you think explains the increase in Volt sales and the pathetic sales performance of SUV's?

------------------------------------------------
Uh, your imagination?

Volt sales for April 2013: 1306 (down 11%)

Chevy Suburban sales for April 2013 3682 (up 6%)

[billvon 3,112]

Yes, EV's suck.


================
Tesla : Consumer Reports' best car ever tested
May 9, 2013: 9:34 AM ET

The Tesla Model S is a nearly perfect car, according to Consumer Reports, with the only issue being its need to recharge which could be a problem on long-distance trips.

Consumer Reports is calling the Tesla Model S the best car it has ever tested. The Model S, an all-electric plug-in car, earned a score of 99 out of a possible 100 in the magazine's tests.

The score would have been higher but for the fact that the all-electric car does need to stop and recharge during extremely long-distance drives.
inside tesla model s

"If it could recharge in any gas station in three minutes, this car would score about 110," said Jake Fisher, head of auto testing for Consumer Reports. Fisher called the car's performance in the magazine's performance tests "off the charts."

Depending on price, the Model S has driving range of between 208 and 265 miles. A full charge takes about six hours from an ordinary 240 volt outlet, according to Tesla.

The Model S has already won awards from car magazines like Motor Trend and Automobile, but Consumer Reports is widely regarded as being the most influential magazine among car shoppers. Consumer Reports, published by the non-profit group Consumer's Union, purchases all the cars it tests and does not accept paid ads.
===================

[brenthutch 444]

I'm sorry, I thought when you said:

"So what do you think explains the increase in Volt sales and the pathetic sales performance of SUV's?"

That you meant:

So what do you think explains the increase in Volt sales and the pathetic sales performance of SUV's?

My bad.

[brenthutch 444]

If it could recharge in any gas station in three minutes, this car would score about 110," said Jake Fisher,


----------------------------------------

IF my aunt had a dick she would be my uncle.

[1969912 0]

Quote

If it could recharge in any gas station in three minutes, this car would score about 110," said Jake Fisher,

But it takes 6 hours, so they only gave it a score of 99

It's a cool car, but you couldn't drive it from SF to LA on a single charge.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[billvon 3,112]

>But it takes 6 hours, so they only gave it a score of 99

Actually about 30 minutes.

>It's a cool car, but you couldn't drive it from SF to LA on a single charge.

True. Of course a lot of gas cars won't make it on a single tank either.

[1969912 0]

Quote

>But it takes 6 hours, so they only gave it a score of 99

Actually about 30 minutes.

I replied to your quote of a CR writeup about the Tesla S that said a full charge takes six hours. If you're talking about spending 1+ hours
topping up in Oxnard, that's a different story.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[billvon 3,112]

>I replied to your quote of a CR writeup about the Tesla S that said a full charge
>takes six hours.

Charge time depends on power available, which in turn depends on where you are charging. If you are driving from LA to SFO you'd be stopping at a place like Coalinga to charge - and at such places you can charge in half an hour. (Tesla is buiilding fast charging stations along oft-traveled routes like the SFO-LAX corridor, LAX-Vegas, Boston-NYC-DC etc.)

[1969912 0]

billvon

>I replied to your quote of a CR writeup about the Tesla S that said a full charge
>takes six hours.

Charge time depends on power available, which in turn depends on where you are charging. If you are driving from LA to SFO you'd be stopping at a place like Coalinga to charge - and at such places you can charge in half an hour. (Tesla is buiilding fast charging stations along oft-traveled routes like the SFO-LAX corridor, LAX-Vegas, Boston-NYC-DC etc.)

Charge what in half an hour? 85 kw-h? That's like 700 amps at 240V. Are there charging stations that can do that?

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[billvon 3,112]

>That's like 700 amps at 240V.

250 amps at 400 volts DC actually. 100kW. That's what Tesla's charge network supports. (Google Tesla Supercharger.)

[rhaig 0]

Iago

SFC to LAX is 380 miles. You'd be hard pressed in most gasoline cars to get there in one tank.

every single car I've ever owned can do that on one tank. from the VW rabbit I had that got 32mpg on the higway with a 13gal tank to the chevy truck I have today that gets 15mpg and has a much larger tank.

yeah, I'm one data point, but "hard pressed" ??

Bill's "a lot of gas cars" is more realistic and believable. (sounds much less like smoke-blowing)

--
Rob

[1969912 0]

billvon

>That's like 700 amps at 240V.

250 amps at 400 volts DC actually. 100kW. That's what Tesla's charge network supports. (Google Tesla Supercharger.)

That's impressive. I hope they sell enough cars to drive the charging infrastructure.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[quade 4]

Perhaps. Most cars have a fuel tank in the 300-350 mile range though.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 3,112]

>I hope they sell enough cars to drive the charging infrastructure.

One of the keys to any such support will be universal charging connectors/standards. For AC (i.e. on board charging) there's SAE J1772 which is a pretty universal standard that goes to 20kW. Most EV's use this connector and it is super cheap to implement. (Well, it will be once a lot of them start being built.)

However for DC charging (i.e. off board charging) there's not one standard yet. The Leaf uses the ChaDeMo standard that allows up to 60kW, Tesla uses their own that's good up to 100kW and SAE is proposing a standard that goes along with J1772 that will go to 240kW.

[1969912 0]

How does the battery cooling system work?

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[billvon 3,112]

On the Tesla? It's actually part of the car's cooling system i.e. it will run the A/C if it needs to during the charge to keep the batteries cool. (There are pipes that run through the battery to cool it.)