muff528 3 #1 August 17, 2012 against "Hooliganism"? Would that even be Constitutional? Are Hooliganists protected under the 1st Amendment? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Niki1 2 #2 August 17, 2012 Quoteagainst "Hooliganism"? Would that even be Constitutional? Are Hooliganists protected under the 1st Amendment? Our right of free assembly and free speech. The problem is who might define what hooliganism is. Those guys over there used to declare indesirables to be mentally ill. Served the same purpose.Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done. Louis D Brandeis Where are we going and why are we in this basket? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #3 August 17, 2012 Make no mistake what the Pussy Riot trial was about had nothing to do with being a "hooligan" and everything to do with free speech. The term itself is vaguely racist, tracing its roots back to what some people would call a rowdy Irish crowd. But again, the bigger issue is its a violation of free speech in this case. To directly answer your question; no. We already have laws that outlaw real rioting.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #4 August 17, 2012 QuoteMake no mistake what the Pussy Riot trial was about had nothing to do with being a "hooligan" and everything to do with free speech.... Precisely why I framed the "question" like I did. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #5 August 17, 2012 Don't you think the US and the various states and localities have already passed laws like this? Google Eugene Debs and see what happened when he was demonstrating during WWI (more of the wholesome goodness of Woodrow Wilson. Anyone notice how many of the "Greatest Presidents" had civil rights problems? Lincoln suspending the writ of habeas corpus? Wilson and Sedition. FDR and the Japanese internment? And using "war" as the justification.) One would think Brandenberg v. Ohio would prevent this in the future. But we know that government is rarely interested in limiting itself. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #6 August 17, 2012 Quote The term itself is vaguely racist, tracing its roots back to what some people would call a rowdy Irish crowd. But again, the bigger issue is its a violation of free speech in this case. Thats about as vague as it gets.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #7 August 17, 2012 Quote Quote The term itself is vaguely racist, tracing its roots back to what some people would call a rowdy Irish crowd. But again, the bigger issue is its a violation of free speech in this case. Thats about as vague as it gets. What part of that do you think is "vague"?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #8 August 17, 2012 Having lived in Ireland for years its a term I've often heard used by Irish people. To term it as racist is pushing the limits of feasibility.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #9 August 17, 2012 Only if they pass a law against "cretin" and "urchin" at the same time. Those poor greeks and echinoderms. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #10 August 17, 2012 QuoteHaving lived in Ireland for years its a term I've often heard used by Irish people. To term it as racist is pushing the limits of feasibility. "Vaguely racist" . . . to deny it refers to the Irish is to deny etymology exists. It's a bit like calling a woman "hysterical." If she wanted to be offended by it, she'd be within her rights. But let's get back to the real reason the thread was created.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #11 August 17, 2012 QuoteOnly if they pass a law against "cretin" and "urchin" at the same time. Those poor greeks and echinoderms. I'm sure you understand that I am referring only to the radical Hooliganists ...the fundamentalist, violent followers of Hooliganism. We all know that 99% of Hooligans are peace-loving contributors to society and are committed to the advancement of whirled peas. If we could only get them to speak out against the Hooliganists [/sigh]. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #12 August 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteHaving lived in Ireland for years its a term I've often heard used by Irish people. To term it as racist is pushing the limits of feasibility. "Vaguely racist" . . . to deny it refers to the Irish is to deny etymology exists. It's a bit like calling a woman "hysterical." If she wanted to be offended by it, she'd be within her rights. But let's get back to the real reason the thread was created. Actually the exact etymology is unknown but there is evidence that it was a Russian word with the same meaning and nothing to do with Ireland or the Irish. So hardly suprising that Pussy Riot were charged with what is a old Russian problem. http://www.languagehat.com/archives/001797.phpWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davjohns 1 #13 August 17, 2012 Disorderly conduct and criminal mischief are already illegal in Alabama. There are generally POP laws everywhere. (Pissing off the police). No. There are no new laws needed that I am aware of.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #14 August 17, 2012 >"Vaguely racist" . . . to deny it refers to the Irish is to deny etymology exists. Just like cretin is vaguely racist. Sure there's some etymology there, but most people don't even know what it is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #15 August 17, 2012 Yes but Pussy Riot weren't charged with being cretins. They might have been if the judge heard their 'music' I heard the 'song' I'd lock them up for a few years too and I think Putin is a prick. Back to the Hooligan thing for a mo, as you might know a Hoolie is the Irish word for a wild party, in the Pale and across much of Ireland at the start of the last century it was common to speak English and mix in words of Irish. The word gan in English at the time meant 'been to/ gone to'. I wouldn't be surprised if Hooligan derived from that mixture, someone acting pissed up having been to a hoolie. Guess we'll never know but the Russian connection is weird. When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #16 August 17, 2012 Quote Yes but Pussy Riot weren't charged with being cretins. They might have been if the judge heard their 'music' I heard the 'song' I'd lock them up for a few years too and I think Putin is a prick. Back to the Hooligan thing for a mo, as you might know a Hoolie is the Irish word for a wild party, in the Pale and across much of Ireland at the start of the last century it was common to speak English and mix in words of Irish. The word gan in English at the time meant 'been to/ gone to'. I wouldn't be surprised if Hooligan derived from that mixture, someone acting pissed up having been to a hoolie. Guess we'll never know but the Russian connection is weird. The Russian connection is, by all accounts I found today, admittedly not many because I'm doing other things, is borrowed from the Irish/English usage which precedes it. This includes the link you provided.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #17 August 17, 2012 OK, if we're through dissecting the etymological origins of "hooligan" (and other words), I was just commenting out loud about where different governments draw the line between lawful protest and criminal dissent or other "physical" activism. Here in the US the line appears to be much farther up the scale towards the riot/vandalism end. Here, the church may have even been in trouble for suppressing the "band's" 1st Amendment rights. (Yes, I know it is not about offending the Russian Orthodox Church, but is actually about the public derision of Putin.) No disrespect meant toward the Vandals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #18 August 18, 2012 OK, back on topic. Does the USA require such a law? Isn't 'hooliganism' covered by several other laws? Also how is hooliganism defined by the Russian legal system? As previously mentioned this has more to do with silencing descent than making a public outrage.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #19 August 18, 2012 QuoteOnly if they pass a law against "cretin" and "urchin" at the same time. Those poor greeks and echinoderms. There are times I might support a law against morons. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #20 August 18, 2012 According to Wiki: "The term hooligan has been used since at least the mid 1890s—when it was used to describe the violent nature of a small population of venomous beavers...." So "hooliganism" may be an appropriate criminal charge for a band named "Pussy Riots". I dunno ...the penalty seems a little stiff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #21 August 18, 2012 When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
