kallend 2,182 #76 August 2, 2012 Quote A pendant hides behind "proper." . "Dangles" might be better for a pendant.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,182 #77 August 2, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote How about #4 is that close? We are talking about "accounting" to a degree after all. and yet less than 5% of people would use the word as you prefer to. Properly? Matt I suggest you go with the definition that professional economists use. That avoids confusion. In that sense the annual budget has a surplus or deficit. The accumulated effect is the debt (I don't think we need a word for the opposite of the debt, since that won't happen in the lifetime of anyone currently alive).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skwrl 56 #78 August 2, 2012 This is a little dated, but it puts stuff in context. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/02/01/us/budget.html/ To make it more interesting, click "hide mandatory spending", which are expenditures that are subject to existing laws (and aren't separately appropriated each year).Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #79 August 2, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteHave we actually had a true surplus since '41? Yes. Under Clinton, there were two years of surplus on- and off-budget. There were additional years of on-budget surplus. I don't think the word "Surplus" means what Politicians think it means. Since '41, We've never had a Zero Balance, always had debt, even the Gov web pages show that. Maybe we can stop with this misnomer and admit we need drastic change! Matt In fiscal years 1999 and 2000, under Clinton, the federal government had an on- and off-budget surplus, the federal government took in more money than it spent and borrowed. So, technically, it was not a zero budget or a balanced budget. It was an actual surplus, not a figment of some politician's imagination.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #80 August 2, 2012 Quote A pendant hides behind "proper." For the record, most people wouldn't use pendant like that! Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bertt 0 #81 August 2, 2012 QuoteIt's a pity that so many voters are completely innumerate. Don't blame the politicians for this; blame the journalists, who are always ready to stand behind the first amendment's rights but do not live up to it's responsibilities.You don't have to outrun the bear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #82 August 2, 2012 Seems a bit at odds with this graph. http://zfacts.com/p/318.html MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #83 August 2, 2012 QuoteSeems a bit at odds with this graph. http://zfacts.com/p/318.html Matt No, it doesn't. You're confusing debt and deficit. A budget surplus indicates operation for the year without a deficit. It does not imply that all debt is payed off.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #84 August 3, 2012 QuoteQuoteSeems a bit at odds with this graph. http://zfacts.com/p/318.html Matt No, it doesn't. You're confusing debt and deficit. A budget surplus indicates operation for the year without a deficit. It does not imply that all debt is payed off. Have we not been talking about debt, and that graph shows debt? It is still a lie, matters not if a particular definition is cherry picked for the spin, we are in debt, period. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #85 August 3, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteSeems a bit at odds with this graph. http://zfacts.com/p/318.html Matt No, it doesn't. You're confusing debt and deficit. A budget surplus indicates operation for the year without a deficit. It does not imply that all debt is payed off. Have we not been talking about debt, and that graph shows debt? It is still a lie, matters not if a particular definition is cherry picked for the spin, we are in debt, period. Matt We've been discussing whether or not the federal government had a budget surplus in 1999 and 2000. (It did.) You keep trying to bring up the debt, which is irrelevant to the topic at hand. It's rather ironic that you are accusing others of trying to spin things, when it's you trying to use a non-standard definition of surplus.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #86 August 3, 2012 Yeah, Ironic, I was using the dictionary and the common mans definitions. Politicians, and those trying to make their political side look better than the other side, are using the Political Economists version of the word. In the end it means nothing, we had DEBT, and still do, growing daily. A true Surplus would be the debt at zero and money in the bank saved for a rainy day. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 906 #87 August 3, 2012 Seems you've pointed out one of the biggest issues in government. Simply ignoring facts and giving them pretty names does NOT fix anything. Hell I don't even feel warm and fuzzy. When I balance my finances, if I still have debt, there is NO surplus. No matter how many columns I put numbers into. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #88 August 3, 2012 QuoteYou keep trying to bring up the debt, which is irrelevant to the topic at hand. Actually, your point is irrelevant. The OP's point was the uninformed masses don't have a plan to eliminate the debt, not the deficit.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #89 August 3, 2012 QuoteSeems you've pointed out one of the biggest issues in government. Simply ignoring facts and giving them pretty names does NOT fix anything. Hell I don't even feel warm and fuzzy. When I balance my finances, if I still have debt, there is NO surplus. No matter how many columns I put numbers into. Well, the two of us are the beginning of understanding and change then! MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #90 August 3, 2012 Quote I've responded to Lawrocket's misleading claims several times, pointing out that, in those years, the federal government's cash accounts increased by greater amounts than the debt increased. Just like Enron. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #91 August 3, 2012 >When I balance my finances, if I still have debt, there is NO surplus. That's fine. But again, you're using a different definition than the rest of the world. (I think I will define "surplus" as "money that goes to good things!" That's a much happier definition. And "gun control" as "laws that prevent gun masaacres." Who can argue with that?) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,182 #92 August 3, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteSeems a bit at odds with this graph. http://zfacts.com/p/318.html Matt No, it doesn't. You're confusing debt and deficit. A budget surplus indicates operation for the year without a deficit. It does not imply that all debt is payed off. Have we not been talking about debt, and that graph shows debt? It is still a lie, matters not if a particular definition is cherry picked for the spin, we are in debt, period. Matt No. The words "debt" and "deficit" have different meanings in THIS CONTEXT. You insist on using a definition different from everyone else IN THIS CONTEXT. If you want to understand what economists are telling you, it helps to use the same words that they do. They are not trying to lie to you. You are just using the same word for two different things which is why you are confused.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #93 August 3, 2012 QuoteA true Surplus would be the debt at zero and money in the bank saved for a rainy day. Incorrect. Those are not necessary conditions for a budget surplus. Nor are those sufficient conditions for a budget surplus. (Consider the case in which the fiscal year ends with fewer cash reserves than at the beginning.)Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #94 August 3, 2012 QuoteWhen I balance my finances, if I still have debt, there is NO surplus. No matter how many columns I put numbers into. ??? Financial entities, including households, often balance their accounts while maintaining debt. It's not a trick.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #95 August 3, 2012 Quote When I balance my finances, if I still have debt, there is NO surplus. No matter how many columns I put numbers into. This line of reasoning implies that debt is bad. it's not. If you have a mortgage, this is a capital expense that you could (normally) not purchase with cash flow. Same with government construction bonds. Used at moderate levels, this is a much better way to finance large efforts. Running a surplus allows you to take on more debt of this fashion. Running a deficit makes it an iffy proposition. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #96 August 3, 2012 Quote Actually, your point is irrelevant. The OP's point was the uninformed masses don't have a plan to eliminate the debt, not the deficit. The OP focused on the deficit. People want to pay less taxes but keep everything we currently have, despite its trillion dollar deficit. We're not even close to the topic of how to eliminate the debt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 906 #97 August 3, 2012 I fully understand that as well as the proper definitions. I'm referring to the mindset of wasting money. Until ALL of my debts are fully paid off, I will not see a surplus per se. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #98 August 3, 2012 QuoteI fully understand that as well as the proper definitions. I'm referring to the mindset of wasting money. Until ALL of my debts are fully paid off, I will not see a surplus per se. Then you either have only short term debt or are using a non-standard definition of budget surplus.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #99 August 3, 2012 QuoteI fully understand that as well as the proper definitions. I'm referring to the mindset of wasting money. Until ALL of my debts are fully paid off, I will not see a surplus per se. that's a good point - the normal definition of "surplus" is based on a periodic (annual) position of taking in more than we budget to spend. Thus, we can be in debt, but still have (an 'annual') surplus. your position, I believe, is a philosophy that this equates to poor planning - if we have achieved this net positive position, we should be taking this theoretical surplus and use it to pay down the total debt. In other words - we should never have a budget that shows a surplus if we retain any long term debts that we could pay to principal on with the leftover. On a personal level, this is an odd way to look at it. If you budget to make your house payments and all your other obligations and wishes, and then, at the end of the year you have money leftover. I'd call that a surplus. Even though I still owe on my house (and have a plan to pay for it over the next several years). You're saying that you can't call it a surplus if you haven't paid off the house.... I get it, I just don't see how it aids in this discussion to hijack the term to your personal philosophy (however, I wish the congress would take your philosophy to heart - which I think is your real message) frankly, I like the idea of a government that pays as it goes - they shouldn't be taking out mortgages (analogy) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #100 August 3, 2012 >I'm referring to the mindset of wasting money. So you are changing the definition of a word to try to get people to think a certain way? Double plus ungood. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
