billvon 3,090
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wmw999 2,560
When does brain activity begin? Before quickening, the brain is clearly forming, but does not respond to stimuli, or have EEG, etc. It's becoming a brain, but really doesn't have what we consider to be a brain.
From Brainblogger.com:
I am pro-choice. I'm not pro-abortion, but I strongly think there are situations where choice is necessary, and I think that the parents have that choice, very possibly with medical and/or family advice.
Wendy P.
From Brainblogger.com:
Given that women aren't forcibly restrained from possibly dangerous activity, nor are they forcibly required to engage in healthy activity when pregnant, I'm going to suggest that there's a lot to say that a 1-second-old post-sex fertilized egg isn't really a full human. Especially since not even the mother knows that it exists yet, and might not for a couple of months.QuoteQuickening
Those same groups which argue against the week 8 model suggest that life begins with the “quickening,” which is when the fetus begins to exhibit voluntary movement inside the womb, usually around 14-16 weeks. At this point the fetus is able to react to external stimuli, which is held as the standard for life.
Week 20
Although the fetus can move at week 14, the movements are little more than jerky reflexes. They are not driven by higher cortical functioning. Therefore, another school of thought is that life begins at week 20, when the thalamus is completely formed. The thalamus is the relay center of the brain, and helps to connect the cerebral cortex to the spinal cord and peripheral nerves.
Week 25
A sizable contingent would assert that life begins at 25 weeks. The rationale for this starting point is based on our definition of death. The definition of death is not disputed, and is considered the time when electroencephalography (EEG) activity ceases. EEG measures brain activity and must demonstrate regular wave patterns to be considered valid. Therefore, by this rule the onset of life would be the time when fetal brain activity begins to exhibit regular wave patterns, which occurs fairly consistently around week 25. Previous to that time, the EEG only shows small bursts of activity without sustained firing of neurons.
I am pro-choice. I'm not pro-abortion, but I strongly think there are situations where choice is necessary, and I think that the parents have that choice, very possibly with medical and/or family advice.
Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
Quote>The creation of life begins at conception.
The creation of life begins at intercourse! (or going back further, the last round of shots.)
we go can further back then that. Earlier in the night, that spray of Axe or that slutty skirt are integral to the process.
Quotepregnant mothers will now be informed: 1) that ‘an abortion terminates the life of a whole, separate, unique, living human being;’
Whomever wrote this law needs to return to kindergarden, as I know four year olds with a better grasp of the meaning of those words.
Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)
(drink Mountain Dew)
rushmc 23
QuoteQuotepregnant mothers will now be informed: 1) that ‘an abortion terminates the life of a whole, separate, unique, living human being;’
Whomever wrote this law needs to return to kindergarden, as I know four year olds with a better grasp of the meaning of those words.
Blues,
Dave
Lawyers.......
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
champu 1
QuoteThe creation of life...
Quote...suggest that life begins with the “quickening,”...
Quote...another school of thought is that life begins at week 20...
Life does not begin or end with each conception, pregnancy, abortion, miscarriage, or death. Life goes on despite all of that. If you want to argue about when a life (i.e. a person, a citizen with rights, etc.) begins, then go right ahead. But since this whole debate is an exercise of precision in language, I think a correct starting point is in order.
Back to the subject of the thread though... if the intention is for physicians to let the woman know that abortion is an emotional and hormonal mind-fuck, and that they strongly recommend psychological/grief counseling should they choose to go through with it, then I really don't have a problem with this law.
But, and my religious right cynicism alarms are going off pretty strongly here, if the intention is to guilt or filibuster a woman into YOUR decision FOR HER from however many hundreds or thousands of miles away you happen to be (both literally and figuratively), then this is disgusting, and supporters on those grounds should be ashamed of themselves and their underhanded ways.
devildog 0
Apparently 
You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.
RonD1120 62
QuoteThe creation of life begins at conception. It doesn't begin the day before or the day after. It begins when it occurs.
I agree.
Don't waste too much of your time fighting the heathens that post here. Keep in mind that everyone will stand before the Lord Jesus Christ. Some will do it as a choice and some will do it as a consequence.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
RonD1120 62
QuoteWhen does brain activity begin? Before quickening, the brain is clearly forming, but does not respond to stimuli, or have EEG, etc. It's becoming a brain, but really doesn't have what we consider to be a brain.
From Brainblogger.com:Given that women aren't forcibly restrained from possibly dangerous activity, nor are they forcibly required to engage in healthy activity when pregnant, I'm going to suggest that there's a lot to say that a 1-second-old post-sex fertilized egg isn't really a full human. Especially since not even the mother knows that it exists yet, and might not for a couple of months.QuoteQuickening
Those same groups which argue against the week 8 model suggest that life begins with the “quickening,” which is when the fetus begins to exhibit voluntary movement inside the womb, usually around 14-16 weeks. At this point the fetus is able to react to external stimuli, which is held as the standard for life.
Week 20
Although the fetus can move at week 14, the movements are little more than jerky reflexes. They are not driven by higher cortical functioning. Therefore, another school of thought is that life begins at week 20, when the thalamus is completely formed. The thalamus is the relay center of the brain, and helps to connect the cerebral cortex to the spinal cord and peripheral nerves.
Week 25
A sizable contingent would assert that life begins at 25 weeks. The rationale for this starting point is based on our definition of death. The definition of death is not disputed, and is considered the time when electroencephalography (EEG) activity ceases. EEG measures brain activity and must demonstrate regular wave patterns to be considered valid. Therefore, by this rule the onset of life would be the time when fetal brain activity begins to exhibit regular wave patterns, which occurs fairly consistently around week 25. Previous to that time, the EEG only shows small bursts of activity without sustained firing of neurons.
I am pro-choice. I'm not pro-abortion, but I strongly think there are situations where choice is necessary, and I think that the parents have that choice, very possibly with medical and/or family advice.
Wendy P.
Thank you for sharing that info.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
rushmc 23
QuoteWhen does brain activity begin? Before quickening, the brain is clearly forming, but does not respond to stimuli, or have EEG, etc. It's becoming a brain, but really doesn't have what we consider to be a brain.
From Brainblogger.com:Given that women aren't forcibly restrained from possibly dangerous activity, nor are they forcibly required to engage in healthy activity when pregnant, I'm going to suggest that there's a lot to say that a 1-second-old post-sex fertilized egg isn't really a full human. Especially since not even the mother knows that it exists yet, and might not for a couple of months.QuoteQuickening
Those same groups which argue against the week 8 model suggest that life begins with the “quickening,” which is when the fetus begins to exhibit voluntary movement inside the womb, usually around 14-16 weeks. At this point the fetus is able to react to external stimuli, which is held as the standard for life.
Week 20
Although the fetus can move at week 14, the movements are little more than jerky reflexes. They are not driven by higher cortical functioning. Therefore, another school of thought is that life begins at week 20, when the thalamus is completely formed. The thalamus is the relay center of the brain, and helps to connect the cerebral cortex to the spinal cord and peripheral nerves.
Week 25
A sizable contingent would assert that life begins at 25 weeks. The rationale for this starting point is based on our definition of death. The definition of death is not disputed, and is considered the time when electroencephalography (EEG) activity ceases. EEG measures brain activity and must demonstrate regular wave patterns to be considered valid. Therefore, by this rule the onset of life would be the time when fetal brain activity begins to exhibit regular wave patterns, which occurs fairly consistently around week 25. Previous to that time, the EEG only shows small bursts of activity without sustained firing of neurons.
I am pro-choice. I'm not pro-abortion, but I strongly think there are situations where choice is necessary, and I think that the parents have that choice, very possibly with medical and/or family advice.
Wendy P.
Thanks Wendy
Great Post!
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
rehmwa 2
QuoteBack to the subject of the thread though... if the intention is for physicians to let the woman know that abortion is an emotional and hormonal mind-fuck, and that they strongly recommend psychological/grief counseling should they choose to go through with it, then I really don't have a problem with this law.
But, and my religious right cynicism alarms are going off pretty strongly here, if the intention is to guilt or filibuster a woman into YOUR decision FOR HER from however many hundreds or thousands of miles away you happen to be (both literally and figuratively), then this is disgusting, and supporters on those grounds should be ashamed of themselves and their underhanded ways.
absolutely - and the solution is to give those women that information and nothing else so they can be fully informed. Provided that info is really true, and not just twisted to bias a decision one way (or the other).
The intent of those pitching it is moot. It's in the application. And, this doesn't "Force" a woman into switching HER decision. It's about releasing info.
My cynicism extends to both sides, it's also disgusting that there are those opposing giving women as much info as possible, just for political points, too.
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
Channman 2
Quote>Not arguing or anything, but can you tell me what day a fetus becomes a whole being?
Certainly when it's born. Probably when it's viable. Certainly not before it has any brain activity.
OK, this is probably a DUM ASS question, statement, whatever...
If a abortionist can legally terminate a pregnancy, terminating a life, how is it a person can be convicted for the murder of a women and the murder of her unborn child? If a fetus is considered a non living thing and can be terminate at will, why is it considered a living being if the fetus meets its end because its primary life support system (mother) was terminated by a criminal act.
Hell, what the heck did I just say
...I think you get my point...just something I'm pondering at the moment.
billvon 3,090
>If a abortionist can legally terminate a pregnancy, terminating a life, how is it a person
>can be convicted for the murder of a women and the murder of her unborn child?
I think for the same reason that a parent can pierce their infant's ears legally - but if a stranger came up to the baby and did that it would be assault. Early on in life a parent is responsible for a child and can make decisions on its behalf. As an infant that includes potentially life altering decisions like decisions on surgery to separate conjoined twins, sex-assignment decisions in cases of ambiguous genitalia etc. Earlier than that (before birth) it even includes life and death decisions, like abortion or selective reduction.
>can be convicted for the murder of a women and the murder of her unborn child?
I think for the same reason that a parent can pierce their infant's ears legally - but if a stranger came up to the baby and did that it would be assault. Early on in life a parent is responsible for a child and can make decisions on its behalf. As an infant that includes potentially life altering decisions like decisions on surgery to separate conjoined twins, sex-assignment decisions in cases of ambiguous genitalia etc. Earlier than that (before birth) it even includes life and death decisions, like abortion or selective reduction.
TriGirl 341
Quote“Planned Parenthood’s own expert, Dr. Nada Stotland, admitted that one of the studies, which determined a suicide rate after abortion of 31.9 per 100,000 as compared to a suicide rate after live birth of 5.0 per 100,000, ‘indicates an association; not causation, but an association’ between abortion and suicide,” the judges wrote.
So, this decision admits that Planned Parenthood is willing to stipulate that there are women who terminate pregnancies and then commit suicide. It says that it's not necessarily the abortion that leads to suicide, but some a variety of factors that contribute to her state of mind (possibly the woman's situation that might lead her to seek an abortion in the first place, or a myriad of other catalysts that end in suicide).
So, how is this the justification for making a woman wait for medical care, so that she can get psychological care that she may not even require? It seems to me they have decided that every woman seeking an abortion in South Dakota needs to undergo some kind of psycological treatment, but does not need to be helped in any other way in any timely fashion. Yeah, let's pile on the harrassment and see how well that helps your statistics.
QuoteThe state recently announced: “Pursuant to the 2011 and 2012 legislation and the order, beginning July 1, 2012, doctors who perform abortions must assess each woman for pre-existing risk factors such as coercion and must advise the woman about the risk of adverse psychological outcomes.”
How about the extra stress placed on a woman already in a tough situation, because you make her come back later (like she hasn't already thought about it), go home to face who could possibly be an abuser, or take more time off work, or arrange yet another ride, and pay for another appointment, etc., etc.?
If I would have had to go through this nonsense and judgemental verbiage, I WOULD have joined the suicide statistics. Luckily, I was treated with dignity like a PERSON, by medical professionals. If only anyone seeking medial treatment could get the same consideration.
See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus
Shut Up & Jump!
Shut Up & Jump!
QuoteQuoteThe creation of life begins at conception. It doesn't begin the day before or the day after. It begins when it occurs.
I agree.
Don't waste too much of your time fighting the heathens that post here. Keep in mind that everyone will stand before the Lord Jesus Christ. Some will do it as a choice and some will do it as a consequence.
Dude! You just violated the Third Commandment.
QuoteMy cynicism extends to both sides, it's also disgusting that there are those opposing giving women as much info as possible, just for political points, too.
Much less disgusting than those who use the force of law to provide too much information at the wrong time in order to impose their political and religious beliefs on them.
billvon 3,090
>absolutely - and the solution is to give those women that information and nothing else
>so they can be fully informed. Provided that info is really true, and not just twisted to
>bias a decision one way (or the other).
Agreed.
An interesting test of this would be to add some language to the law. Perhaps:
- a requirement to inform the woman that carrying the fetus to term will result in a serious risk to her health, and indeed jeopardize her life
- a requirement that the woman be given information (including photos) of vaginal tears, anal-vaginal fistulas, hernias and C-section scars resulting from birth
- an estimate (from low to high) of the cost of raising a child over the next 20 years
- a requirement that the doctor determine whether anyone is coercing her into having the child, and if so, providing for the woman's removal into protective custody if there is
- a quick summary of how their lives will change if they have a child from a social worker
If the same people who support the current law reverse themselves when the new language is added, the likelihood that they're all about the twist goes up.
>so they can be fully informed. Provided that info is really true, and not just twisted to
>bias a decision one way (or the other).
Agreed.
An interesting test of this would be to add some language to the law. Perhaps:
- a requirement to inform the woman that carrying the fetus to term will result in a serious risk to her health, and indeed jeopardize her life
- a requirement that the woman be given information (including photos) of vaginal tears, anal-vaginal fistulas, hernias and C-section scars resulting from birth
- an estimate (from low to high) of the cost of raising a child over the next 20 years
- a requirement that the doctor determine whether anyone is coercing her into having the child, and if so, providing for the woman's removal into protective custody if there is
- a quick summary of how their lives will change if they have a child from a social worker
If the same people who support the current law reverse themselves when the new language is added, the likelihood that they're all about the twist goes up.
rehmwa 2
agreed on the the 1st and the 4th items (and I think the 4th is particularly a good idea anyway) - many here argue vigorously, that an abortion is only a procedure on some tissue, and is not used to avoid the responsibility of raising a person. So any references to actually giving birth, or child rearing would be off the talking points. the wording comes too close to using terms like 'birth' or 'child'
So, you might find the pro-choice crowd would take exception to all but #1 and #4. They could be argued against by the biased from both sides - strangely enough.
Truth and info, sadly, take a back seat to both sets of fanatics.
(I like your approach, the criteria of right or wrong can frequently be established by using the same technique and substituting equivalent concepts from the other side - if it doesn't apply in both directions, then it's a clear example of unfair bias. e.g. - restrict (gun/speech) rights; it's not fair to (black/white) people; etc etc etc)
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
So, you might find the pro-choice crowd would take exception to all but #1 and #4. They could be argued against by the biased from both sides - strangely enough.
Truth and info, sadly, take a back seat to both sets of fanatics.
(I like your approach, the criteria of right or wrong can frequently be established by using the same technique and substituting equivalent concepts from the other side - if it doesn't apply in both directions, then it's a clear example of unfair bias. e.g. - restrict (gun/speech) rights; it's not fair to (black/white) people; etc etc etc)
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
rehmwa 2
QuoteLuckily, I was treated with dignity like a PERSON, by medical professionals.
seems that dignity and respect involve giving someone all the information available and letting them make their own decision
that means all the info from both sides of the issue
all the medical info especially
it also means to not sugar coat any of it also - honesty is the only thing
you don't try to make it easy, you also don't try to make it unnecessarily cumbersome either. you just give the dry facts and let the adult make their own choice
to me (IMO) the line has to be drawn at pushing a specific choice (either way), delays (waiting periods), or requiring personal interviews (psych evals without additional reason), etc - those are too much. In many states, men are required, even, to wait a month for a vasectomy - seems that's none of the doctor's, or the state's, business either.
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
QuoteTruth and info, sadly, take a back seat to both sets of fanatics.
This is why it's best to leave the decision to be made between a woman and her doctor. In private.
rehmwa 2
QuoteQuoteTruth and info, sadly, take a back seat to both sets of fanatics.
This is why it's best to leave the decision to be made between a woman and her doctor. In private.
the doctor doesn't get a vote - his job is to provide the chosen service
IMO - it's best for the woman to have all the info available and then SHE makes the decision. (Hopefully, she's in a relationship where the father is part of the discussion).
Side note (beaten to death so many ways) - Whatever the situation, if the decision is solely hers, then the responsibility for the decision (either way) is also solely hers.
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
The creation of life begins at intercourse! (or going back further, the last round of shots.)
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