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QuoteProductive for whom exactly? Left to their own devices, most business people would cut off your head and shit down your throat if it meant making extra money.
Bull shit
It's not like there are any good examples of this.
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka
rushmc 23
QuoteQuoteProductive for whom exactly? Left to their own devices, most business people would cut off your head and shit down your throat if it meant making extra money.
Bull shit
It's not like there are any good examples of this.
Wide brush stupid statements standout for what they really are
That is why people who make them get called on it
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
billvon 3,120
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>Mortgage payments fall in the realm of business transactions. You entered into that
>agreement, so you need to meet it.
Agreed, and if you refuse, you will be forced out of your house. Thus his claim that "Force is not the tool of businessmen, but of bureaucrats" is incorrect.
>Again, what limits on taxation exist?
You get to elect the people who decide what your taxes will be.
>Once you've voluntarily entered into a business transaction, then you are
>expected to uphold it.
Agreed. Once again you have demonstrated a fallacy of the author.
>agreement, so you need to meet it.
Agreed, and if you refuse, you will be forced out of your house. Thus his claim that "Force is not the tool of businessmen, but of bureaucrats" is incorrect.
>Again, what limits on taxation exist?
You get to elect the people who decide what your taxes will be.
>Once you've voluntarily entered into a business transaction, then you are
>expected to uphold it.
Agreed. Once again you have demonstrated a fallacy of the author.
funjumper101 15
QuoteProductive for whom exactly? Left to their own devices, most business people would cut off your head and shit down your throat if it meant making extra money.
Bull shit
Coming from a Koch Brothers employee, this is pathetic.
What do you think your superiors are up to? Tiddlywinks?
The Koch Brother are cutting off the heads of the middle class and shitting down our throats so as to preserve and expand their empire and influence.
Only the willfully blind and ignorant don't see it.
Your paycheck depends on moral and spiritual blindness. Severe skill in demonstrating these attributes is displayed in this venue.
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It's more money for the owner.
That's why people start businesses. You're free, at least at this point in time in America, to go start your own business.
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While it's true that in the long run, everyone wins when employees are treated and compensated fairly, most people in power and running a business only care because the social pressure exists to care, which is due to government forced labor standards.
I'm not saying there isn't a role for government. The question is - what limits exist there?
Quote
The general nature of humans tends towards greed and self preservation in most circumstances.
Yes, that's commonly referred to as acting in one's own self interest. Which is what markets are all about. Everyone acting in their own self interest, but engaging in business transactions that benefit both parties in some way. If there isn't benefit to both parties, the business transaction doesn't happen. It's self regulating that way.
We are all engines of karma
billvon 3,120
>Bill, I think the point that you are missing is that business, when managed properly
>is regulated by choice.
No, it's regulated by mandate. If you let them make their own choices we get Enron, and Standard Oil, and Homestead Steel.
If businessmen could knock down your door, take all your money, leave you with nothing and then force you to work for them, they would - and they'd offer services to do that to other people for a low, low price. What stops them? That evil government, which passes laws that prevent theft and unfair labor practices.
> And if you don't like a regulation, you can't walk away from it.
And for people as a whole - that's a good thing. That's why you can work for a company, get paid a steady wage, be secure in your home etc etc. (Google "truck system" for an example of what a company does when it can.)
>is regulated by choice.
No, it's regulated by mandate. If you let them make their own choices we get Enron, and Standard Oil, and Homestead Steel.
If businessmen could knock down your door, take all your money, leave you with nothing and then force you to work for them, they would - and they'd offer services to do that to other people for a low, low price. What stops them? That evil government, which passes laws that prevent theft and unfair labor practices.
> And if you don't like a regulation, you can't walk away from it.
And for people as a whole - that's a good thing. That's why you can work for a company, get paid a steady wage, be secure in your home etc etc. (Google "truck system" for an example of what a company does when it can.)
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If businessmen could knock down your door, take all your money,
Ok, so you're counting the Mafia as a business here. I don't think most people having this discussion would consider them to be valid businessmen.
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Agreed, and if you refuse, you will be forced out of your house. Thus his claim that "Force is not the tool of businessmen, but of bureaucrats" is incorrect.
Using the legal framework provided by our judicial system, which yes of course, is provided by our government.
What legal principles limit the actions of bureaucrats?
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Once again you have demonstrated a fallacy of the author.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
We are all engines of karma
billvon 3,120
>Ok, so you're counting the Mafia as a business here.
The Mafia doesn't do that because they like to be mean. The Mafia does that because it is profitable to do so. That's the point.
Fortunately, we have laws that prevent most companies from doing that.
>Using the legal framework provided by our judicial system, which yes of course, is
>provided by our government.
Agreed!
>What legal principles limit the actions of bureaucrats?
Constitutionality and electability. You have control of one of those fortunately.
The Mafia doesn't do that because they like to be mean. The Mafia does that because it is profitable to do so. That's the point.
Fortunately, we have laws that prevent most companies from doing that.
>Using the legal framework provided by our judicial system, which yes of course, is
>provided by our government.
Agreed!
>What legal principles limit the actions of bureaucrats?
Constitutionality and electability. You have control of one of those fortunately.
Fast 0
Quote
Yes, that's commonly referred to as acting in one's own self interest. Which is what markets are all about. Everyone acting in their own self interest, but engaging in business transactions that benefit both parties in some way. If there isn't benefit to both parties, the business transaction doesn't happen. It's self regulating that way.
In an informed society which chooses to act together, sure. Billvon has mentioned a few more examples of this concept not being true. I linked one. Your premise breaks down when you scale up to society.
If minimum wage went away, it wouldn't take long for businesses to move the general pay scale a lot lower. At first you would have a choice, but in the long run, things would adjust in favor of the business owner. Most businesses would go for the short run gains, then cut and run if things failed.
There are even examples of this in skydiving (see: skyride).
I am a firm believe that most things should be ok for people to do. Drugs, prostitution, gun ownership, etc, really whatever. I don't care one bit what a person wants to do. The purpose of government should be to provide a stable national defense, basic infrastructure and intervene when something that I choose to do makes problems for someone else and that's it. Fair labor standards falls into basic infrastructure.
I do think that the government goes way too far in many things, but to fix that problem a whole lot is going to have to change.
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka
Quote
>What legal principles limit the actions of bureaucrats?
Constitutionality and electability. You have control of one of those fortunately.
That was a soft pitch to you
Yes, that is something we can agree on here.We are all engines of karma
Maybe win/win for the two making the trade, but at the end of the day the people working for these companies are the ones who end up suffering when there is no reasonable expectation of a labor standard, etc.
Most people running a business who are allowed to pay their employees less, would, provided they can find people willing to do the work. It's more money for the owner. Most people aren't in business to make their employees rich. This is one of the predominant reasons that we have problems with undocumented immigrant workers.
You also really don't need to go that far back in history to find substantially terrible working conditions for industrial workers, etc. Hell, that stuff still happens in places where there are no good regulations to prevent it.
While it's true that in the long run, everyone wins when employees are treated and compensated fairly, most people in power and running a business only care because the social pressure exists to care, which is due to government forced labor standards. The general nature of humans tends towards greed and self preservation in most circumstances. Even the politicians who force this stuff on businesses in the name of the greater good are only doing it for self motivating factors.
Wake up and smell the coffee, people aren't generally nice to one another on a large scale when the choice comes down to me or him.
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka
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