CSpenceFLY 1 #51 July 24, 2012 Quote Quote Watch this situation to understand that conceal and carry can work but isn't likely to work in the previous situation. I wonder what they put their colour up on the headlines for, would they have done that if they'd both been white? I guess they could have blurred the pictures so you couldn't tell. Do you think these two guys are some of the oppressed blacks that have to commit crime to survive? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #52 July 24, 2012 Thats my point, its bloody obvious that they're black so why put it on the headline. I don't see how their colour has anything to do with the crime they committed... And yes your suggestion was a stupid one.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 892 #53 July 24, 2012 That's A, not 10. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #54 July 24, 2012 QuoteWhy is it so difficult for people to admit that a gun or few in the audience just wouldn't have likely made a difference? Because it would shatter either the belief that they would be able to defend themselevs in any situation because they have a gun. Or, because it would shatter their belief that they would be a hero if confronted by something similar. No malicious intent, just basic human psychology. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 892 #55 July 24, 2012 Or some of us would simply prefer any fighting chance at survival. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #56 July 24, 2012 QuoteOr some of us would simply prefer any fighting chance at survival. Like I said, it would shatter their belief they would have made a difference in this situation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 892 #57 July 24, 2012 You're guessing at best. Were you there? Any chance, no matter how remote, is better than none. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #58 July 24, 2012 QuoteNo malicious intent, just basic human psychology. Nah, just your basic fallacy of extension...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #59 July 24, 2012 Quote Were you there? Nor were you, but then I am not the one claiming I would have made a difference. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 892 #60 July 24, 2012 Nor am I, nor have I. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cocheese 0 #61 July 24, 2012 No. Getting a good dose of hot CS gas is like taking a bong hit of ammonia. You will bury your face in that nasty floor in search for cleaner air. If everyone had a paintball gun, maybe people would shut the fuck up during the movie. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #62 July 24, 2012 QuoteI have, however, asked you repeatedly if you've ever actually experienced a tear gas. I have. It sucked when I was expecting it. Aim a weapon when unexpectedly exposed? LMAO! I have been exposed to CS gas plenty of times in a live fire shoot house. I could, and have, hit head sized targets while in a tear gas *filled* environment. No, no one was shooting back at me.... But your claim that it is impossible is flat false. QuoteWhy is it so difficult for people to admit that a gun or few in the audience just wouldn't have likely made a difference? Well, he stopped when faced with lethal force. Why is it so impossible for you to admit that it might have made all the difference? Your claims are not supported by review of civilian shootouts like the 70+ year old man in Florida last week or this one: http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4/bios/story/conceal-and-carry-stabbing-salt-lake-city-smiths/NDNrL1gxeE2rsRhrWCM9dQ.cspx Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #63 July 24, 2012 Quote.. if you had a paintball gun that you could shoot another individual in the face while they move around shooting their paintball gun into a dark, crowded theater filled with tear gas without hitting anyone else in the crowd? You make no mention of distance. But yes, I think I could hit a head sized target at a reasonable distance in a low light condition in a lightly CS bass filled room. I have done it in training in the Army, so I know I can do it. Some other things you seem to not know or choose to ignore: 1. Getting shot even with body armor hurts. It is not like most people are just going to continue their actions with no slowing down. So even a few COM rounds would have slowed this guy down and allowed an active shooter to close the distance or find cover. 2. Getting shot at, even when wearing body armor, will slow your progress and make you focus on that threat, or leaving that threat. 3. Most nutball shooters do not do well when faced with armed opposition. Just read a bunch of after action reports.... And notice that this guy DIDN'T get into a shootout with the police, but gave up. 4. The police didn't stop this guy from killing 12 people. 5. Having a gun gives you a choice... You can decide to shoot back or run. And you can change rolls as needed. Without the gun you have one option, run. There are plenty of cases where a good guy with a gun didn't have to shoot the bad guy and still saved lives. Here is one example http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4/bios/story/conceal-and-carry-stabbing-salt-lake-city-smiths/NDNrL1gxeE2rsRhrWCM9dQ.cspx Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #64 July 24, 2012 >Having a gun gives you a choice... You can decide to shoot back or run. And you >can change rolls as needed. Without the gun you have one option, run. Really? In a situation like that the only thing you could think to do would be to run? Hmm. I suspect if you ever found yourself in a situation like that you'd be able to think a little better than that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #65 July 24, 2012 QuoteI have done it in training in the Army, so I know I can do it. With a weapon you could carry concealed and at a moment you would not expect it at all? Never mind the chaotic crowd around you bumping into you etc. QuoteWithout the gun you have one option, run. Another black/white only person. You and Normiss should exchange numbers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #66 July 24, 2012 I took my kid to see the new ice age and thought about the difficulties of hitting a target in the flickering low light conditions with people screaming and jumping all over in an attempt to flee.... there's a good chance someone else would get hit but backed into a corner I would take that risk rather than let some fucktard execute us. Roy They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #67 July 24, 2012 Quote>Having a gun gives you a choice... You can decide to shoot back or run. And you >can change rolls as needed. Without the gun you have one option, run. Really? In a situation like that the only thing you could think to do would be to run? Hmm. I suspect if you ever found yourself in a situation like that you'd be able to think a little better than that. I guess I should take that as a compliment. But the fact is that basic human reaction to a serious threat is boiled down to flight or fight. Research has show that the initial reaction is to run and that fight is only chosen when the person has been trained to react that way, they have a clear advantageous position, or as an act of last resort (do or die). And even people trained to walk towards the gunfire often do not choose fight until other factors come into play (peer pressure or last resort). So the initial reaction to all but the hardest MF'er on the block will be to run (which includes hiding). “We were all scared, obviously, but we had learned the floor drill meticulously. They were trying to shoot us. We killed them,” - CSM Hideshi Sasaki on his first combat experience in Panama with the Rangers. And also one of my 1SG's. So a first reaction for almost everyone is fear and to seek cover till being prepared to act. Then after a situational assessment, then a course of action can be made (fight or flight). Having or not having a weapon is a GIGANTIC piece in favor of acting.... But still not a guaranty. I can't say 100% that if I was there with my everyday carry gear that I would have engaged. I can't with any confidence say that my actions would have done any good. I can say with 100% confidence that NOT having a weapon would reduce the chances of me taking action and reduce the chances of having any positive result. I am not some drug store pulp fiction hero....I am not someone who thinks he can save the world. I am just a guy that recognizes that cops cannot be everywhere and they cannot stop every lunatic in the world. I also recognize that the armed man will kill the armed man with monotonous regularity and feel that I should take some responsibility in my and my families safety. We KNOW that this guy was not stopped by the police before he killed 12 people. We KNOW he gave up to the police when they arrived on scene. Anyone claiming that an armed citizen could have stopped this... Is making a guess. But the guy claiming that an armed citizen would have not helped or done more damage is ALSO making a guess. We will never know if an armed citizen would have made any difference..... But we also KNOW that an armed citizen has made a difference in many cases already. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #68 July 24, 2012 Quote1. Getting shot even with body armor hurts. It is not like most people are just going to continue their actions with no slowing down. So even a few COM rounds would have slowed this guy down and allowed an active shooter to close the distance or find cover. These men were wearing body armor and continued their assault while being shot. Quote2. Getting shot at, even when wearing body armor, will slow your progress and make you focus on that threat, or leaving that threat. This man wasn't wearing body armor and continued his assault after being shot without focusing on the threat. Quote5. Having a gun gives you a choice... I agree, a gun does give you a choice. I disagree that the majority of individuals claiming they could hit a small moving target in a dark, crowded theater filled with tear gas could actually do it."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #69 July 24, 2012 QuoteWith a weapon you could carry concealed and at a moment you would not expect it at all? With an issued pistol, like the type I carry. 'at a moment you would not expect it at all'..... Well, the initial moment is gone after a few seconds. Once a course of action has been chosen the shock factor is gone. QuoteAnother black/white only person. You and Normiss should exchange numbers. You should study human reactions to stress. Particularly combat stress. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #70 July 24, 2012 I've sort of come to the conclusion over the last few days you can never convince Walter Mitty, he lives in a fantasy world.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #71 July 24, 2012 QuoteThese men were wearing body armor and continued their assault while being shot. And others have been stopped. Quote This man wasn't wearing body armor and continued his assault after being shot without focusing on the threat. And others have been stopped. Travon Martin was dropped with one shot for example. QuoteI agree, a gun does give you a choice. Yes, and that is better than not having an option. QuoteI disagree that the majority of individuals claiming they could hit a small moving target in a dark, crowded theater filled with tear gas could actually do it. And I disagree that an armed person would not have helped or made the situation worse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #72 July 24, 2012 QuoteAnd I disagree that an armed person would not have helped or made the situation worse. Interesting you would state it like that. The armed person is simply carrying a tool. It is the actions of the person with the arms that could have helped or made the situation worse. Just having an armed person would not have made any difference. The discussion centred on effectiveness of the actions of an average armed person, not just the presence of an armed person. For somebody who is adamant about the guns are just a tool mantra, you just fell into the same trap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #73 July 24, 2012 QuoteWhy is it so difficult for people to admit that laws against guns wouldn't have likely made a difference? I haven't said or implied anything about changing gun laws.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #74 July 24, 2012 QuoteWhy is it so difficult for people to admit that laws against guns wouldn't have likely made a difference? Because, if the laws were absolute, this absolutely wouldn't have gone down the way it did. If there was an absolute zero tolerance 100 percent gun ban and the weapons and other tools used weren't easily purchasable via the Internet, this wouldn't have happened the way it did. That's unquestionable. You can speculate about other scenarios, but gun laws completely outlawing them and making them unable to be purchased via the Internet absolutely would have changed this scenario. I am in no way suggesting guns be outlawed altogether, but a conversation should take place about what an appropriate level of firepower a peron should have access to in a nearly unregulated manner.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #75 July 24, 2012 QuoteI have been exposed to CS gas plenty of times in a live fire shoot house. I could, and have, hit head sized targets while in a tear gas *filled* environment. How many times were you expecting CS gas in those exercises? The shooter had: Superior firepower, protective mask and tear gas, body armor, and, very importantly, the element of surprise. QuoteYour claims are not supported by review of civilian shootouts like the 70+ year old man in Florida last week or this one: Those are drastically different scenarios than the one we are discussing.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
