rehmwa 2 #51 July 17, 2012 Quoteyou are being way to literal on purpose to help your point. Most reasonably moderate people would feel if you created a new business, not inherit it, you are self made that's much more coherently put than my ramblings ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 379 #52 July 17, 2012 QuoteSo what should Sam Walton do here? etc...Apparently I need a sarcasm symbol to stick on some posts. I was just mocking the idea of a "self-made millionaire" who "did it all on his/her own" without any help from anybody, ever. I like Weekender's definition of the "self-made" too; I see them as people who recognize and move on opportunities that exist within the existing society and infrastructure. Risk takers and all that. Successful new businesses add value to existing processes, or add new elements (such as technologies) to what already exists, and people who can make this happen deserve to reap the benefits. What pisses me off are the people who deny any role for the existing social structures (an educated work force, law and order, etc) and infrastructure (roads, power grids, even clean water/public health facilities such as water treatment plants) in their success, and argue that they have no obligation to support any of it. More than any particular individual, it pisses me off to see this mythology promulgated by the Republican party in a blatant effort to pander to those who believe either that 1) they are indeed completely self-made, or 2) they can have access to everything that an organized society provides, without having to pay for any of it themselves. I honestly don't know where the "self-made millionaire" is equivalent to welfare thing comes from. I certainly didn't intend to imply that. Cheers, Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #53 July 17, 2012 Quote But these are the exceptional people. Really. There are a lot more successes who had good early lives. Are all those kids who go to shitty inner-city schools really stupider? Wendy P. Drive and desire to change your circumstances probably plays a bigger role than IQ (baring the truly retarded). Studies into the cultures of the inner cities show an astounding lack of desire to better oneself, and there's a prevalent "crab in the bucket" syndrome that goes on as well. Ultimately, those who make that first step to try and "get out" have the choice to make to either get dragged back down or cut ties and move on. It's not an easy choice, but it's still theirs to make.You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #54 July 17, 2012 Quote What is most disturbing is the implication that if no one is responsible for ones success, than no one is responsible for one’s failure. A sentiment that encapsulates the "Occupy" movement. Which is exactly why certain people want to see this narrative through.You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #55 July 17, 2012 >You need to re-read his speech. That may be what you heard, but it is certainly >not what he said. Doesn't really matter. Obama may not have said it, but republicans consider it to be "truthy." From Wikipedia: ============== Truthiness is a quality characterizing a "truth" that a person claims to know intuitively "from the gut" or because it "feels right" without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts. . . . "We're not talking about truth, we're talking about something that seems like truth – the truth we want to exist . . . Now I'm sure some of the 'word police', the 'wordinistas' over at Webster's are gonna say, 'Hey, that's not a word'. Well, anybody who knows me knows I'm no fan of dictionaries or reference books. They're elitist. Constantly telling us what is or isn't true. Or what did or didn't happen." ============== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #56 July 17, 2012 QuoteApparently I need a sarcasm symbol to stick on some posts. no, that sarcasm was amazingly well done. I was smiling the whole read ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #57 July 17, 2012 QuoteWhat pisses me off are the people who deny any role for the existing social structures (an educated work force, law and order, etc) and infrastructure (roads, power grids, even clean water/public health facilities such as water treatment plants) in their success, and argue that they have no obligation to support any of it. I don't see anybody arguing they have no obligation to support it. I see them arguing that they shouldn't have to support all the other social programs in a disproportionate way. That's the rub. From the other side - I see this argument come up when someone is arguing for welfare support, or FREE medical care, or free IDs, or a new stadium paid by taxes, or light rail, or etc etc etc. they then generalize that as a generic social program, then they equate all social programs to things like infrastructure and utilities, etc. Then, they accuse people that disagree with (example) funding for the perverted arts, as those that are also against roads........ so you see, we're both upset at the strawmen that both sides put up. Quotethey can have access to everything that an organized society provides, without having to pay for any of it themselves. you know this quote is disengenuous - the position is NOT that they want to pay for 0% of it. the position is they object to having to pay for 99% of it while so many pay for none of it. I doubt that any Libertarian out there is truly a full anarchist, but it's easier to argue that strawman rather than understand what they really want and discover we're all a lot closer in philosophy than we're not (with a few dorky exceptions) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 1 #58 July 17, 2012 Quote>his government only takes Really? You've never used an interstate highway? Your business has never shipped goods on them? You've never utilized air traffic control? You can argue that "what the government provides can be better provided by someone else" but you can't really argue "we get nothing from them." Business is proactive... government is reactive. Which came first... paved roads etc. or the automobile? The point is we need some of these structures and that is the job of government but it has gone way too far with the power it claims or Barry claims. Could businesses exist without the government? YES Could government exist without business? NO This country is built on small business. (period) Obama thinks the federal government should provide for all and knows best. That is not what this country was founded on.Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #59 July 17, 2012 >Business is proactive... government is reactive. Which came first... paved roads etc. >or the automobile? Paved roads - by about 6000 years. >Could businesses exist without the government? YES Agreed, but it would be a lot harder. >Could government exist without business? NO The USSR lasted 70 years. Also not the best approach though IMO. As always the ideal approach is somewhere in between the two extremes. >Obama thinks the federal government should provide for all and knows best. In the immortal words of Dan Cook - Yeah. Whatever. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,556 #60 July 17, 2012 So how do you think they got that way -- DNA? Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #61 July 17, 2012 Class warfare at it's worst. He demonstrated that he doesn't have a clue when it comes to business in this country, and to top that off he wants to take credit for those roads and bridges. How many here have the balls to risk everything they have on an idea, and I mean everything. Life savings, house...everything. Know why we haven't come out of this recession? Because smart businessmen aren't going to risk anything while this asshole is in office.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #62 July 17, 2012 Quote In the immortal words of Dan Cook - Yeah. Whatever. Pretty much the only people who'll get that are Perrisites. Whooper-dee-doo.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 1 #63 July 17, 2012 Quote>Business is proactive... government is reactive. Which came first... paved roads etc. >or the automobile? Paved roads - by about 6000 years. >Could businesses exist without the government? YES Agreed, but it would be a lot harder. >Could government exist without business? NO The USSR lasted 70 years. Also not the best approach though IMO. As always the ideal approach is somewhere in between the two extremes. >Obama thinks the federal government should provide for all and knows best. In the immortal words of Dan Cook - Yeah. Whatever. Bill .. you got the point.. paved roads came out of necessity for things like carts etc. they were not created by the government. I stand by my point that the government is reactive and business is proactive. In terms of government I was speaking about ours.... not a communist government which by the way probably needed business in a big way. China certainly relies on it.Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #64 July 17, 2012 >Bill .. you got the point.. paved roads came out of necessity for things like carts etc. Right! Government provided the infrastructure that the "transportation industry" required. >I stand by my point that the government is reactive and business is proactive. I'd say it's both. Government developed ARPANet (became the Internet) the space program, nuclear power, the Interstate highway system etc. Business developed the microprocessor, the automobile, the airplane etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chutem 0 #65 July 17, 2012 I found it interesting that "the rest of us paid for" is repeated. He is not speaking to those who bulit a business, he is speaking to those who are envious of people who took the risk to build something. James Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 1 #66 July 17, 2012 QuoteClass warfare at it's worst. He demonstrated that he doesn't have a clue when it comes to business in this country, and to top that off he wants to take credit for those roads and bridges. How many here have the balls to risk everything they have on an idea, and I mean everything. Life savings, house...everything. Know why we haven't come out of this recession? Because smart businessmen aren't going to risk anything while this asshole is in office. He demonstrates that over and over ... even with his attacks on Romney. This crap about Mitt possibly being a Felon comes with a complete lack of understanding corporate structure. Obama wants to claim it is he who is creating jobs but the truth is that the small amount of jobs that are being created are bc of businesses finding a way to make things work. I know this to be true bc I am one of those business owners. This is the same president that called a Naval Corpsman a "Corpse man" three times in a speech bc he has no clue about the military either. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/02/04/obama_mispronounces_corpsman_at_prayer_breakfast.htmlLife is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 1 #67 July 17, 2012 Quote>Bill .. you got the point.. paved roads came out of necessity for things like carts etc. Right! Government provided the infrastructure that the "transportation industry" required. >I stand by my point that the government is reactive and business is proactive. I'd say it's both. Government developed ARPANet (became the Internet) the space program, nuclear power, the Interstate highway system etc. Business developed the microprocessor, the automobile, the airplane etc. I will give you that on rare occasions some smart people in the government make things happen but it is not comparable to what business does. Business could survive without government.Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #68 July 17, 2012 QuoteI see them arguing that they shouldn't have to support all the other social programs in a disproportionate way. I see them arguing that they shouldn't have to support all the other social programs in a disproportionate way, despite benefiting from society disproportionately.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #69 July 17, 2012 I asked you before and you never responded, so I'll try again. Can you give some specific examples of what Obama has done or promised to do that you think are destroying business, the military, our standing in the world, etc.? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #70 July 17, 2012 QuoteWhich came first... paved roads etc. or the automobile? Roads were initially paved for bicyclists, not motorists.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #71 July 17, 2012 QuoteBusiness could survive without government. I agree. Business is thriving in Somalia. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #72 July 17, 2012 QuoteI found it interesting that "the rest of us paid for" is repeated. He is not speaking to those who bulit a business, he is speaking to those who are envious of people who took the risk to build something. I don't think so. I think he's talking about the millions upon millions of people that have come before us who built the country who make it possible for people to be successes now. Steve Jobs couldn't have made the iPhone himself and there would be no infrastructure to use it without people at Motorola and AT&T and they wouldn't have existed without help from the government either. Everyone stands on the shoulders of giants before them. Everyone contributes to society. Hell, you can't become a millionaire without others buying your product. No man is an island.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #73 July 17, 2012 Depends which school of psychology you belong to :)You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 1 #74 July 17, 2012 QuoteI asked you before and you never responded, so I'll try again. Can you give some specific examples of what Obama has done or promised to do that you think are destroying business, the military, our standing in the world, etc.? Sure I can and I am sorry I never saw your question before. In giving these examples I know you are just going to counter and say they are wrong but lets give it a shot... business --> Tax increases and regulation that kills industries (i.e. coal) Military --> Massive cuts ( less could be used) http://www.navytimes.com/news/2012/02/military-budget-break-faith-troops-families-022812w/ Standing in the world--> I could throw some stuff at you that you would just call opinion so let me just share the view of our country now in the eyes of hostiles... you may still call this opinion... Putin thinks we are weak and crumbling and has no respect for Obama at all... nor do a lot of other hostile countries and their leaders An insane amount of security leaks that have put US lives in danger Gun running that led to a US death and many Mexican deaths. The cover up is what is hurting our relationship with many south of the border. Israel... enough said. Edited to add: The economy he has kept from moving hurts us all around.Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #75 July 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteI see them arguing that they shouldn't have to support all the other social programs in a disproportionate way. I see them arguing that they shouldn't have to support all the other social programs in a disproportionate way, despite benefiting from society disproportionately. the benefit from society is they get to use the roads and sewers - just like everyone else- any success beyond that you claim that's also because of society and not their efforts - others claim that the extra benefit they earned....that's the real question, isn't it? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
