headoverheels 333 #176 July 17, 2012 Quote Option 1. Jump tickets are $25 but if you buy 5, I'll give then to you for $20 a piece, Option 2. You can buy a jump tickets for $25 each or pay me a $5 penalty. Since there's no difference to you between a discount and a penalty, how many of Option 2 can I put you down for? I take Paypal. I can buy my plan elsewhere. My HMO/HDZ plan is $15 or $13 if I pay ahead for services. Service is generally good, but hours sometimes inconvenient. No appointments, so the wait can be long. If we could just get all those folks who might jump some day to kick in now, they would get better pricing when they do, and I would get a better deal now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #177 July 23, 2012 Quote>The difference is in my world, I have the right to not buy a car and not pay a fine for >not buying a car. You weren't talking about rights there. You were claiming that there is a difference between the terms "discount" and "penalty." If you don't really see a difference there, then we agree on that. There is a difference. I don't know how much simpler I can explain it. Discount = A deal. Penalty = A punishment. The next poster to you explained it pretty well. If you buy 5 jump tickets, I'll give them to you with a 5 dollar discount. If you don't buy any jump tickets you have to pay a five dollar fee. If you can't see the difference between those two.... I don't know how it could be explained any simpler and I have to wonder if you are actively trying to not understand it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #178 July 23, 2012 QuoteI don't know how it could be explained any simpler I explained it more simply here.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #179 July 23, 2012 Not really. You are still confusing voluntary outlay and forced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #180 July 23, 2012 QuoteNot really. You are still confusing voluntary outlay and forced. No, I'm not. I'm stripping from the question all of the partisan rhetoric and making an objective comparison to see if a difference actually exists. (It doesn't.)Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #181 July 24, 2012 QuoteWhats so wrong with Obama care? The word Obama. It would have been embraced on the right as Romney Care. Basic Marketing mistake. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #182 July 24, 2012 QuoteNo, I'm not. I'm stripping from the question all of the partisan rhetoric and making an objective comparison to see if a difference actually exists. (It doesn't.) False. One is a reward for spending money, the other is a punishment for NOT spending money. Can't get much simpler than that. If you STILL choose not to see the difference, it is simply your partisan blinders. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #183 July 24, 2012 >I'm stripping from the question all of the partisan rhetoric and making an objective comparison That's the problem. Objectively they are exactly the same. But emotionally they're not. "But one's a PENALTY and PENALTY is a bad word! It's FORCED! It's a BAN!" Etc etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #184 July 24, 2012 Quote>I'm stripping from the question all of the partisan rhetoric and making an objective comparison That's the problem. Objectively they are exactly the same. But emotionally they're not. "But one's a PENALTY and PENALTY is a bad word! It's FORCED! It's a BAN!" Etc etc. False. Choose to buy something and get a discount for doing it != you choosing to not buy something and getting charged a penalty. You can try to play word games, but there is a difference. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #185 July 24, 2012 http://dailycaller.com/2012/07/24/study-1-in-10-american-employers-to-drop-health-care-coverage/ "Almost one in 10 employers in the U.S. plans to drop health care coverage in reaction to President Obama’s health care reform, according to a study by the consulting company Deloitte. Eighty-one percent of companies surveyed intend to maintain insurance for their workers, while 10 percent remain unsure. Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/07/24/study-1-in-10-american-employers-to-drop-health-care-coverage/#ixzz21Zgyrhro" Doesn't sound like a good thing to me at all. But we did have to pass it in order to find out what's in it! There could never be a problem there!You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #186 July 24, 2012 QuoteFalse. One is a reward for spending money, the other is a punishment for NOT spending money. Incorrect. As I described them, they are provably the same thing.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #187 July 24, 2012 QuoteQuoteFalse. One is a reward for spending money, the other is a punishment for NOT spending money. Incorrect. As I described them, they are provably the same thing. nearly anything is provable with the right starting assumptions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #188 July 24, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteFalse. One is a reward for spending money, the other is a punishment for NOT spending money. Incorrect. As I described them, they are provably the same thing. nearly anything is provable with the right starting assumptions. No unrealistic assumptions are required, just the standard definition of equivalence between two functions.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #189 July 24, 2012 You have $x. If you keep it, you still have $x. x If you spend $x on goods and/or services, you have their value. Even moreso if there is some sort of purchase incentive. X=V If you pay a penalty or fine of $x with it you get nothing for your money. Fines and penalties produce no value to the payer. x=0Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #190 July 24, 2012 QuoteYou have $x. If you keep it, you still have $x. x If you spend $x on goods and/or services, you have their value. Even moreso if there is some sort of purchase incentive. X=V If you pay a penalty or fine of $x with it you get nothing for your money. Fines and penalties produce no value to the payer. x=0 You still don't get it, I see. Imagine going to a club. Upon paying a $10 cover charge, you receive two coupons, each good for $5 off a drink. The drinks' regular prices start at $8. Some consider it a penalty that they have to pay $10 towards two drinks just to get in the club. Others consider it a discount on their first two drinks, since they had to pay the $10 cover to get in anyway. Both groups are correct. It doesn't matter whether it's called a penalty or discount. It's the same thing. Just as we can look at the ACA tax as a penalty, we can consider the American Opportunity Credit to establish a penalty for not enrolling in courses at an accredited institution of higher learning. Likewise, the Saver's Credit establishes a tax penalty for not contributing to an IRA. A rose by any other name …Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #191 July 24, 2012 QuoteQuoteYou have $x. If you keep it, you still have $x. x If you spend $x on goods and/or services, you have their value. Even moreso if there is some sort of purchase incentive. X=V If you pay a penalty or fine of $x with it you get nothing for your money. Fines and penalties produce no value to the payer. x=0 You still don't get it, I see. Imagine going to a club. Upon paying a $10 cover charge, you receive two coupons, each good for $5 off a drink. The drinks' regular prices start at $8. Some consider it a penalty that they have to pay $10 towards two drinks just to get in the club. Others consider it a discount on their first two drinks, since they had to pay the $10 cover to get in anyway. Both groups are correct. It doesn't matter whether it's called a penalty or discount. It's the same thing. Just as we can look at the ACA tax as a penalty, we can consider the American Opportunity Credit to establish a penalty for not enrolling in courses at an accredited institution of higher learning. Likewise, the Saver's Credit establishes a tax penalty for not contributing to an IRA. A rose by any other name … This assumes I want to go to the club.You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #192 July 24, 2012 Quote Quote You have $x. If you keep it, you still have $x. x If you spend $x on goods and/or services, you have their value. Even moreso if there is some sort of purchase incentive. X=V If you pay a penalty or fine of $x with it you get nothing for your money. Fines and penalties produce no value to the payer. x=0 You still don't get it, I see. So you're fine with paying fines and penalties and getting nothing for it? I'll make you a similar offer I made Bill: I've got a helmet I'll sell you for $50 or you can pay me a $15 fine for not buying it. I take PayPal. Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #193 July 24, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteYou have $x. If you keep it, you still have $x. x If you spend $x on goods and/or services, you have their value. Even moreso if there is some sort of purchase incentive. X=V If you pay a penalty or fine of $x with it you get nothing for your money. Fines and penalties produce no value to the payer. x=0 You still don't get it, I see. Imagine going to a club. Upon paying a $10 cover charge, you receive two coupons, each good for $5 off a drink. The drinks' regular prices start at $8. Some consider it a penalty that they have to pay $10 towards two drinks just to get in the club. Others consider it a discount on their first two drinks, since they had to pay the $10 cover to get in anyway. Both groups are correct. It doesn't matter whether it's called a penalty or discount. It's the same thing. Just as we can look at the ACA tax as a penalty, we can consider the American Opportunity Credit to establish a penalty for not enrolling in courses at an accredited institution of higher learning. Likewise, the Saver's Credit establishes a tax penalty for not contributing to an IRA. A rose by any other name … This assumes I want to go to the club. It's a flawed premise: Upon paying a $10 cover charge, you receive two coupons, each good for $5 off a drink. You decide not to go to the club and are assessed a $5 fine.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #194 July 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteYou have $x. If you keep it, you still have $x. x If you spend $x on goods and/or services, you have their value. Even moreso if there is some sort of purchase incentive. X=V If you pay a penalty or fine of $x with it you get nothing for your money. Fines and penalties produce no value to the payer. x=0 You still don't get it, I see. Imagine going to a club. Upon paying a $10 cover charge, you receive two coupons, each good for $5 off a drink. The drinks' regular prices start at $8. Some consider it a penalty that they have to pay $10 towards two drinks just to get in the club. Others consider it a discount on their first two drinks, since they had to pay the $10 cover to get in anyway. Both groups are correct. It doesn't matter whether it's called a penalty or discount. It's the same thing. Just as we can look at the ACA tax as a penalty, we can consider the American Opportunity Credit to establish a penalty for not enrolling in courses at an accredited institution of higher learning. Likewise, the Saver's Credit establishes a tax penalty for not contributing to an IRA. A rose by any other name … This assumes I want to go to the club. Going to the club being analogous to living in the US, of course.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #195 July 25, 2012 QuoteSo you're fine with paying fines and penalties and getting nothing for it? I disagree with your premise that we receive nothing in return for taxes paid. Congress essentially passed a tax to help defer costs of people not paying for healthcare consumed, and then gave a tax credit to people who purchase insurance, since they won't be contributing to the cost of non-payment.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #196 July 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYou have $x. If you keep it, you still have $x. x If you spend $x on goods and/or services, you have their value. Even moreso if there is some sort of purchase incentive. X=V If you pay a penalty or fine of $x with it you get nothing for your money. Fines and penalties produce no value to the payer. x=0 You still don't get it, I see. Imagine going to a club. Upon paying a $10 cover charge, you receive two coupons, each good for $5 off a drink. The drinks' regular prices start at $8. Some consider it a penalty that they have to pay $10 towards two drinks just to get in the club. Others consider it a discount on their first two drinks, since they had to pay the $10 cover to get in anyway. Both groups are correct. It doesn't matter whether it's called a penalty or discount. It's the same thing. Just as we can look at the ACA tax as a penalty, we can consider the American Opportunity Credit to establish a penalty for not enrolling in courses at an accredited institution of higher learning. Likewise, the Saver's Credit establishes a tax penalty for not contributing to an IRA. A rose by any other name … This assumes I want to go to the club. It's a flawed premise: Upon paying a $10 cover charge, you receive two coupons, each good for $5 off a drink. You decide not to go to the club and are assessed a $5 fine. Incorrect. Going to the club is analogous to living in the US. The cover charge is a tax/penalty levied on everyone. The 2x $5 coupons are a tax credit for those who choose to purchase insurance. An inconsequential difference is if the club (possibly) streamlines the administration costs by only charging a cover charge to those who don't buy two drinks. The end result is identical.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #197 July 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYou have $x. If you keep it, you still have $x. x If you spend $x on goods and/or services, you have their value. Even moreso if there is some sort of purchase incentive. X=V If you pay a penalty or fine of $x with it you get nothing for your money. Fines and penalties produce no value to the payer. x=0 You still don't get it, I see. Imagine going to a club. Upon paying a $10 cover charge, you receive two coupons, each good for $5 off a drink. The drinks' regular prices start at $8. Some consider it a penalty that they have to pay $10 towards two drinks just to get in the club. Others consider it a discount on their first two drinks, since they had to pay the $10 cover to get in anyway. Both groups are correct. It doesn't matter whether it's called a penalty or discount. It's the same thing. Just as we can look at the ACA tax as a penalty, we can consider the American Opportunity Credit to establish a penalty for not enrolling in courses at an accredited institution of higher learning. Likewise, the Saver's Credit establishes a tax penalty for not contributing to an IRA. A rose by any other name … This assumes I want to go to the club. Going to the club being analogous to living in the US, of course. No, in context, at least prior to the craptastic behemoth that Obama care is, I didn't have to buy insurance. If, say, I had $1000 a month, and buying insurance would cost say, $100 with a $10 rebate / tax break, whatever, I'd be down to $910 when it was all said and done. I could choose NOT to buy insurance if I wanted to and stay at $1000. I'm choosing not to go to the club. Now you're saying I have to go to the club, and you're going to take my $90 whether I like it or not.You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #198 July 25, 2012 QuoteNo, in context, at least prior to the craptastic behemoth that Obama care is, I didn't have to buy insurance. If, say, I had $1000 a month, and buying insurance would cost say, $100 with a $10 rebate / tax break, whatever, I'd be down to $910 when it was all said and done. I could choose NOT to buy insurance if I wanted to and stay at $1000. I'm choosing not to go to the club. Now you're saying I have to go to the club, and you're going to take my $90 whether I like it or not. You have to go to the club in exactly the same way that you have to live in the US. You can choose to leave, but that isn't a practical option for most people living here. If you do stay in the country, you have to pay a healthcare tax. If you buy a qualifying health insurance plan, then you receive a tax credit that offsets the healthcare tax.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #199 July 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteNo, in context, at least prior to the craptastic behemoth that Obama care is, I didn't have to buy insurance. If, say, I had $1000 a month, and buying insurance would cost say, $100 with a $10 rebate / tax break, whatever, I'd be down to $910 when it was all said and done. I could choose NOT to buy insurance if I wanted to and stay at $1000. I'm choosing not to go to the club. Now you're saying I have to go to the club, and you're going to take my $90 whether I like it or not. You have to go to the club in exactly the same way that you have to live in the US. You can choose to leave, but that isn't a practical option for most people living here. If you do stay in the country, you have to pay a healthcare tax. If you buy a qualifying health insurance plan, then you receive a tax credit that offsets the healthcare tax. The club is not the US. The club is health insurance (not healthcare). I've got a helmet I'll sell you for $50 or you can pay me a $15 fine for not buying it. Only a few words changed on your above statement justifies this. If you do stay in the country, you have to pay a helmet tax. If you buy a qualifying helmet, then you receive a tax credit that offsets the helmet tax. So you can either pay me $50 and get a helmet or pay me $15 and get nothing. Either way money is coming out of your pocket regardless of if you even wanted to buy a helmet.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #200 July 25, 2012 QuoteThe club is not the US. The club is health insurance (not healthcare). Incorrect.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
