Deniers getting pretty desperate

[kallend 2,108]

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You selectively quoted of just one side of his position. I provided balance. Stop being so defensive.

and you are ASS-uming that was my intention when I really just wan't trying to spam the thread with crap that people could go read on their own.

I didn't ASSume anything. I just provided the balancing part of the article since you had only quoted one side of what he said. Not an assumption, FACT.

Why are you so defensive? What are you trying to hide?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,078]

>there's more people out there besides the NOAA and the media.

Agreed. There's Hollywood, and novelists, and politicians. There are think tanks and lobbyists. Per the first post, there are even people who threaten to kill scientist's children to silence them. It's a good idea to choose your sources wisely.

[rehmwa 2]

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> there are even people who threaten to kill scientist's children to silence them

and even those that will lethally sabotage lumberjacks' tools to keep them from working

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[mnealtx 0]

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> there are even people who threaten to kill scientist's children to silence them

and even those that will lethally sabotage lumberjacks' tools to keep them from working

Or suggest skeptics are mentally ill and need 'treatment'.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 3,078]

Some more bad news for type I deniers today. Exxon is starting to drill for oil in the Arctic Sea. The ships are on their way now, and final approval from Salazar is expected within the month.

This is bad news for two reasons.

One, when even Exxon thinks that the Arctic has lost so much ice that they can drill for oil there, the "the earth isn't warming! The ice isn't melting!" line is going to get a lot of laughs.

Two, one of the mainstays of their platform has been "Obama's trying to cut off our oil to stop this global warming hoax!" With the Obama administration allowing drilling in one of the our last reserves - not too many people will take that seriously any more, either.

It looks like the deniers are getting a pretty big credibility problem.

[Gravitymaster 0]

You keep beating this "Deniers" drum. Most that I have talked to and most who post here don't deny it's occuring. They simply disagree with the causes.

[mirage62 0]

Leave Bill alone! This is his one out of control passion that over rides his normal open minded, common sense. Most everyone has several.....

he only has one.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[billvon 3,078]

>Most that I have talked to and most who post here don't deny it's occuring. They
>simply disagree with the causes.

That's a type II denier.

To list them again:

Type I deniers deny that the temperature is changing, that ice is melting etc. We pretty regularly see posts that say things like "global warming ended in 1998! It ended in 1934! The ice isn't really melting! The seas aren't rising!"

Type II deniers acknowledge that the warming is taking place but they deny that we have anything to do with it. Typically these people blame the sun, the moon, the liberals, or some as-yet unknown force that is causing it while being 100% positive that increasing CO2 percentage in our atmosphere could not possibly have any effect. A smaller chunk of type II deniers deny that CO2 levels are rising, or that something else is causing them to rise.

Type III deniers acknowledge both of the above but deny that it could possibly be a bad thing. I have not seen any such deniers here, but there are at least two websites that have headlines that have messages like "CO2 - a dangerous gas or an amazingly effective aerial fertilizer?" They claim that either 1) such a minor change in our atmosphere/temperature couldn't be bad for anything or 2) such a major change in our atmosphere/temperature will help us bigtime.

Most people in the US now accept climate change. Many disagree on how severe the problems will be, how much we should spend to fight it, how to prepare for it, what course we should take etc. These people are _not_ deniers; they accept the science behind AGW, they just disagree on what to do about it.

[Gravitymaster 0]

[kallend 2,108]

Actually Exxon stopped funding some of the more absurd denialist organizations like Heartland and Competitive Enterprise Institute several years ago.

"There is no question that the world's climate is getting warmer. It is foolish for individual countries to engage in their own actions because it won't do much more than make them feel good. It is particularly important for the emerging economies of the Pacific Rim, where the biggest increases in carbon emissions will occur, to take part in the discussions." Exxon CEO Rex Tillerson, 2/13/2007

And just last week Exxon's Tillerson admitted in a speech to the Council on Foreign Relations that AGW is real, saying “We have spent our entire existence adapting. We’ll adapt. It’s an engineering problem and there will be an engineering solution.”

I wonder how the inhabitants of Tuvalu will adapt to being submerged.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,078]

>“We have spent our entire existence adapting. We’ll adapt. It’s an engineering problem
> and there will be an engineering solution.”

That's good news to me. He's admitting there is a problem and we will need solutions. That's a much more rational approach than the ostrich approach that many such companies have adopted.

[mnealtx 0]

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Some more bad news for type I deniers today. Exxon is starting to drill for oil in the Arctic Sea. The ships are on their way now, and final approval from Salazar is expected within the month.

Got links for that? I found where Shell has approval for drilling off Alaska during the open water season but nothing on Exxon.

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It looks like the deniers are getting a pretty big credibility problem.

Looks like the alarmists are getting even more desperate for something to hang a global warming label on.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 3,078]

>I found where Shell has approval for drilling off Alaska during the open water season
>but nothing on Exxon.

You are correct. Shell got the preliminary approval for US drilling; Exxon announced a $500 billion deal with Russia to drill in the Arctic off their shores. I reversed the two companies.

>Looks like the alarmists are getting even more desperate for something to hang a
>global warming label on.

Well, looks like alarmists are in good company with Shell and Exxon.

[mnealtx 0]

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>I found where Shell has approval for drilling off Alaska during the open water season
>but nothing on Exxon.

You are correct. Shell got the preliminary approval for US drilling; Exxon announced a $500 billion deal with Russia to drill in the Arctic off their shores. I reversed the two companies.

>Looks like the alarmists are getting even more desperate for something to hang a
>global warming label on.

Well, looks like alarmists are in good company with Shell and Exxon.

Well, other than that whole "open water season" thing, which counters your supposed point.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,108]

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>I found where Shell has approval for drilling off Alaska during the open water season
>but nothing on Exxon.

You are correct. Shell got the preliminary approval for US drilling; Exxon announced a $500 billion deal with Russia to drill in the Arctic off their shores. I reversed the two companies.

>Looks like the alarmists are getting even more desperate for something to hang a
>global warming label on.

Well, looks like alarmists are in good company with Shell and Exxon.

Well, other than that whole "open water season" thing, which counters your supposed point.

Good job the open water season is getting longer and the area of open water bigger, thanks to climate change.

nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/2012/06/sea-ice-tracking-at-record-low-levels/

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,078]

>Well, other than that whole "open water season" thing, which counters your
>supposed point.

Tell it to these guys:

=========
Ice Melt Will Bring Species Loss, Oil Drilling to Canada’s Hudson Bay, Researchers Suggest

By Katherine Bagley
May 13, 2011

Rapidly thinning sea ice on Canada's Hudson Bay will trigger a fast rate of species loss and open new access to commercial shipping and crude oil exploration, the authors of a new study suggest.
=========
Obama Administration, Shell moving ahead with Arctic oil exploitation
Jeremy Hance
April 02, 2012

Last week, the U.S. Department of the Interior approved oil spill clean-up plans by Royal Dutch Shell Oil in the Beaufort Sea, paving the way for offshore oil drilling in the Arctic to begin as soon this year. The Interior's approval was blasted by environmentalists, who contend that oil companies have no viable way of dealing with a spill in the icy, hazardous conditions of the Arctic, far from large-scale infrastructure. Shell, which has spent $4 billion to date to gain access to the Arctic, must still be granted final permits for drilling.
. . .
The decision to move forward on oil drilling in the Beaufort Sea, which would occur just north of the western edge of Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR), comes shortly after the Obama Administration also opened up drilling in the Arctic's Chukchi Sea, allowing oil exploitation in the Arctic for the first time since the 1990s.

. . .

The Arctic drilling debate often focuses on the direct impact of oil spills, and not the long-lasting perils of climate change. Yet, the Arctic has seen the biggest impacts from climate change to date with sea ice vanishing and temperatures rising faster there than anywhere else on Earth. Scientists have long warned that the world needs to quickly move away from fossil fuels in order to mitigate global climate change, but governments with stakes in the Arctic have yet to heed these calls: instead they have viewed less seasonal ice due climate change as a chance to exploit the region for more fossil fuels.
=====================

In the past we've seen climate change deniers arguing with scientists about climate change. Now they're arguing with Shell and Exxon. (Who, I guess, are "traitors to the cause" or something now.)

[mnealtx 0]

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>I found where Shell has approval for drilling off Alaska during the open water season
>but nothing on Exxon.

You are correct. Shell got the preliminary approval for US drilling; Exxon announced a $500 billion deal with Russia to drill in the Arctic off their shores. I reversed the two companies.

>Looks like the alarmists are getting even more desperate for something to hang a
>global warming label on.

Well, looks like alarmists are in good company with Shell and Exxon.

Well, other than that whole "open water season" thing, which counters your supposed point.

Good job the open water season is getting longer and the area of open water bigger, thanks to climate change.

nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/2012/06/sea-ice-tracking-at-record-low-levels/

Desperation indeed... see attached.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

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I wonder how the inhabitants of Tuvalu will adapt to being submerged.

learn to swim?

barrier reefs eventually get reclaimed by the sea. We're just helping the process along.

[headoverheels 333]

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I wonder how the inhabitants of Tuvalu will adapt to being submerged.

learn to swim?

barrier reefs eventually get reclaimed by the sea. We're just helping the process along.

SCUBA. And the benefit is less skin cancer.

Personally, I'm hoping for about 3-4 degrees F to make my swimming pool more comfortable, without needing A/C.

[lawrocket 3]

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Type I deniers deny that the temperature is changing, that ice is melting etc. We pretty regularly see posts that say things like "global warming ended in 1998! It ended in 1934! The ice isn't really melting! The seas aren't rising!"

This is where ime in the middle, too. I'll stand by the temperature trend over the last ten to fifteen years as being flat. Many in the "alarmist" community also acknowledge this and can't explain it.

The Alarmist points to studies of "rising sea level on the east coast." Meanwhile, satellite measurements show a fairly flat sea level over the past thirty years but increasing subsidence of the land. The Alarmist says that the past week is climate change weather. The denier says, "We've seen it before." No acknowledgement that both may be right, but there's a whole lotta spinning going on.

And then there's stuff like North Carolina being "anti science" for having the gall to suggest that future presictions should take into account past data. Sure, you don't want law dictating what science does. But I really cannot bring myself to believe that solid science predicting the future does not entail some past data as a starting point.

Science is, of course, looking to explain the unexplainable. But inability to explain the last fifteen years can affect the credibility of someone attempting to predict the next hundred.


[Reply]Type II deniers acknowledge that the warming is taking place but they deny that we have anything to do with it. Typically these people blame the sun, the moon, the liberals, or some as-yet unknown force that is causing it while being 100% positive that increasing CO2 percentage in our atmosphere could not possibly have any effect. A smaller chunk of type II deniers deny that CO2 levels are rising, or that something else is causing them to rise.

[kallend 2,108]

So far this year, there have been 15,055 record highs, but only 1,343 record lows in the USA. That's a ratio of 11:1

Feeling warm?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Thanks for that info. I'm looking into buying stock in companies that make air conditioners.

[brenthutch 444]

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So far this year, there have been 15,055 record highs, but only 1,343 record lows in the USA. That's a ratio of 11:1

Feeling warm?

Silly Kallend, he thinks that the USA is the globe. I guess if he lived in Australia he would be talking about global cooling.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-12/cold-snap-hits-south-east/3768810

[billvon 3,078]

>I'm looking into buying stock in companies that make air conditioners.

And ice cream! Who doesn't like ice cream?

[kallend 2,108]

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The weather bureau says an extreme cold front has broken a series of low temperature records for Canberra, Goulburn and the Snowy Mountains.

Another climate record? So you admit that globally the weather is getting more extreme, as predicted.

Have an ice-cream.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.