Vagina!

[davjohns 1]

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Why do conservative men think they can tell a woman what she can and can't do with her Vag?

It's about their ability to own a woman and the generic imperative to copy their genes.

Once they get a woman knocked up and she gives birth she's more likely to stay in a bad marriage "for the children."

After some time out of the workforce at home with the kids she'll have a much harder time surviving by herself and may stay for the financial security.

Obviously that whole process would be easier if she couldn't get birth control to prevent pregnancy or abortion to end it.

1. As I mentioned and some failed to notice; the vagina is not at issue. Babies are made and grow in the uterus. The vagina is primarily a sex organ. That's why it keeps getting brought up. For shock value. Some of the guys here didn't catch it or didn't do too well in anatomy class.

2. It's a difficult issue. Some of us (me) don't understand the concept that life doesn't begin until it gets out of the uterus. Some of us think that thing inside a woman looks like a person or at least something that will be a person soon if nobody interferes. And if being born makes one a person...my kids were both C section. Can I still abort them twenty years later?

3. There is a control issue, but it goes both ways. I don't want to tell a woman that she must carry a child (rarely, but sometimes a child of rape) when she does not want the child. I don't want to tell a woman that she must accept financial responsibility for the next 18 years when she does not want to. The other side of that sword is that the guy might not want to be on the hook for 18 years either. He has no input. Both of them accepted the possibility when they had sex. Only one has any choices after sex. Not a huge deal to me. The guy knew that nature gave the woman the control and he accepted that. He should have been using the big head. Still, the fact that the man has no choice bites ever so slightly into the argument that woman should have complete control over the situation.

4. For me, the ultimate issue is 'when does life begin'? If it begins at conception, the woman's right to control her body (and the man's input as well) ended when she chose to take the chance by having sex. The unborn child's rights trump. If life begins sometime later, it gets really dicey. The rape issue makes things incredibly difficult, but that issue is so rare that it is just a distraction from legitimate debate. I'm not saying ignore it. I'm just saying that if you can't answer the issue of when life begins, you can't hope to drive on to an even more difficult aspect of the debate.

5. The bottom line is that I can't imperically answer the abortion question. For me, I would rather see people have safe sex and avoid the issue. I would like to see people take responsibility for their consequences and raise a child. But then, I would like to see the end of wars, hunger and sadness as well...

6. Until I have a definitive answer on the subject that covers everyone's rights and issues, I don't get too excited about the individual woman doing what she feels she must. If you are very keen on the issue and don't want her to abort, go to the clinic and stand outside with a sign that says you will cover her expenses and adopt the child. It's a start.

Not sure anything I just typed is worth reading. Sorry about that.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[rehmwa 2]

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If you are very keen on the issue and don't want her to abort, go to the clinic and stand outside with a sign that says you will cover her expenses and adopt the child.

actually, that kind of sign would be a much better message than the crap that's normally out there

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I don't want to tell a woman that she must accept financial responsibility for the next 18 years when she does not want to. The other side of that sword is that the guy might not want to be on the hook for 18 years either.

you have no ideas the kind of names you will called for bringing this up. Consider this old thing - 4 scenarios - two have conflict. Is there balance between the decisions - is there any WAY to have balance.

1 - Mother wants to raise the baby, Father wants to raise the baby - no conflict
2 - Mother wants to raise the baby, Father doesn't want to raise the baby - conflict
3 - Mother doesn't want to raise the baby, Father wants to raise the baby - conflict
4 - Mother doesn't want to raise the baby, Father doesn't want to raise the baby - no conflict

Who's paying for it - and does it align with the wishes of each?

Yes - it doesn't include the option for having it and giving it up for adoption......That gets into the moral side of just letting it live even if you don't want it -

this is all about the willingness of each to put the effort and resources into raising the life mass into an adult - this is not about giving birth, but about the desire to be a parent or not

Here's where it falls down:

Abortion - the woman can choose to have it, and the man can be forced to support it against his wishes

the Religious anti-abortions - THEY choose to make her have it and then force HER to support it against her wishes

Both positions force someone to choose against their wishes, then forces them to take ownership of the decision they didn't make.

I think, either way, the responsibility must go with who makes the decision. And the woman is a lot closer to the situation than a group of strangers (male or female, who cares? it that specific woman in that specific situation - that's why statements about 'women vs men' is also nonsense - it's not the group that matters, it's the potential mother and sometimes the father that only matter in the decision process)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[masterrig 1]

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I could understand if, she got sat down for saying 'pussy'. She was trying to get someone's attention. She accomplished that!

Or other choice euphemisms....

I suspect the lack of immediate reaction was because the trailer park boys didn't understand 'vagina'. They would have understood 'pussy' or 'box' or some such.

Politicians...gotta love 'em.

They probably thought she was talking about one of the 58 States!


Chuck

[wmw999 2,602]

Good post. Whether or not I agree down the line, it's thought out and based on what you think and why, and not based on what you think I should think (or at least what I think you think I should think ).

I do think that the answer to "when does it become a human" isn't clear-cut; I also think that manipulative people will use any determination to their advantage with a screw-the-consequences-for-others approach. That's (some people's) human nature.

Women get the one-sided physical consequences of pregnancy. They are significantly more likely to end up with the financial ones as well (or at least the responsibility to apply for TANF ). It's not "only fair" that they should therefore be the only ones whose vote counts when it comes to abortion, but since there's only one body, and an imperfect decision has to be made, make it based on whose body is impacted.

When does it become a baby? Sometime between conception and emergence from the uterus. Few women inspect their tampons for evidence of fertilized eggs so they can grieve and conduct a proper burial. OTOH, the thought of "aborting" an 8-month fetus is repellent. And in the "choose the baby or the mother" scenarios, I hope we can leave those decisions to the mother, doctor, and family. They're not very common, and legislators and activists probably aren't as qualified to make a decision that has to take a lot of factors into account.

Personally, I'd like to see effective birth control be (very) easily available, possibly even free. Just about all of it, including vasectomies and tubal ligations.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rehmwa 2]

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I hope we can leave those decisions to the mother, doctor, and family.

I don't like that we always include the 'doctor' in the decision discussion. He provides 'input' only and provides the service - just because he's in the process doesn't imply he owns ANY portion of the decision. It's still up to the mother or her designate - even including the father and the family is her duty in terms of doing what's right - but even there, that's still just input.


I like your post. Though, there is no such thing as FREE products.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[funjumper101 15]

There is an important detail about birth control that escapes most men. That is the fact that it is NOT 100% effective, even when use correctly.

I have two nieces that are the result of failed birth control. My sisters choose to carry them to term.

They had the choice, and made the decision that was right for them, at the time and place of the event.

The immense concern that the anti-choice people have for unborn children starts at conception, and tapers off real quick after about three months, then ends at delivery. After that, the mother is on their own. The assclowns vote against pre-natal services for poor women, work to end financial support of Planned Parenthood, and generally don't give a rats ass about the mother and child at all. Cutting welfare benefits and food stamps is what they vote for. If you vote for them, that is what you are supporting.

I would much rather my tax dollars be used for contraception, and abortions, if that is what a woman decides. Better that than 18 years of welfare and possible legal issues with an unwanted child that was subject to bad parenting.

[wmw999 2,602]

Good point about the doctor. In some situations (the not-so-clear-cut), he might have information that the mother, father, and other relevant family need to make the best decision.

No, there isn't such a thing as FREE anything, but cheaper-than-the-logical-alternative sometimes is the best you can do.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[wmw999 2,602]

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I would much rather my tax dollars be used for contraception, and abortions, if that is what a woman decides. Better that than 18 years of welfare and possible legal issues with an unwanted child that was subject to bad parenting.

I agree entirely about the failed birth control thing; even supposedly-reliable means (e.g. IUD) do have failure rates. Yes, if one is having sex there is always the possibility of having babies.

But people have been proving for thousands of years that they'll have sex even if the consequence is an unexpected child (I really hate the term unwanted -- every baby deserves to be wanted -- it's the only way they'll develop).

The optimum result from any project is the best you could achieve with the team you were able to gather. Not the best that could be achieved with an ideal team. Those are often two very different things. I'd like to see more working at achieving optimum results, rather than idealized ones.

Just as "good enough is the enemy of perfection," perfection is the enemy of good enough. And in life, good enough generally is exactly that.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[davjohns 1]

I think you and I are in violent agreement on this. You even went on to a point that I have been thinking about since posting...

Every year, our federal government has to pass a budget. In the past 14 years, they can't perform that basic function on time. They can't balance a budget. They can't do lots of things they are required to do to any level of reasonable efficiency. Do we really want these people trying to figure out the complexities of such a debatable matter? It is no better at lower levels of government. These are not the people that I want passing laws on such a difficult matter. I would rather have no or minimal legislative action on the matter.

It might not be a good solution and it has its own consequences, but it might be the best of a bad lot.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[popsjumper 2]

[reply
They probably thought she was talking about one of the 58 States!

Do you realize how much it burns when Coca-Cola passes through your nose on it's way out?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Gravitymaster 0]

What percentage of women who get pregnant do you think were not using any type of birth control?

[oldwomanc6 60]

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What percentage of women who get pregnant do you think were not using any type of birth control?

Probably most, but you knew that.

However, it is not only women who are, or are not, using birth control. I'm pretty sure that both parties are present during conception.

That being said, no birth control is 100%, some of it doesn't even have a user error.

lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

[Gravitymaster 0]

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What percentage of women who get pregnant do you think were not using any type of birth control?

Probably most, but you knew that.

However, it is not only women who are, or are not, using birth control. I'm pretty sure that both parties are present during conception.

That being said, no birth control is 100%, some of it doesn't even have a user error.

So you are saying they don't use good judgement?

[popsjumper 2]

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...both (all three?) parties are present during conception.

That would be nice.


I'm confused on why you didn't include the videographer, too.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[masterrig 1]

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[reply
They probably thought she was talking about one of the 58 States!

Do you realize how much it burns when Coca-Cola passes through your nose on it's way out?


Yes, I do! I tried snorting Coke once and it came right back out! It was horrible! I don't know how people do that.


Chuck

[wmw999 2,602]

I don't know. You could do a study on it. I know from personal experience that supposedly reliable birth control fails. Since I am pro-choice, it's not really incumbent on me to determine how many women seeking abortion were using birth control, or to judge whether it was effective enough to deserve the evaluation of not-careless.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Gravitymaster 0]

I only ask because recently someone told me that they trusted women to make the right decision regarding abortion. It occurred to be that if their judgement was so poor that they didn't use proper protection, were they really in the best position to make a life and death decision on whether they should abort an unborn child?

[wmw999 2,602]

Who do you think is better equipped than (fallible) women to make a decision on abortion -- (fallible) men?

And Davjohn is right -- one big point in the abortion debate is the determination of when it's a human being rather than a fetus etc. I happen to think it's about the time of reasonable viability, and I also think that abortion for birth defects that are incompatible with life (e.g. anencephaly, trisomy 13) should be allowed, even after 18-20 weeks. Yes, those children can have life -- 2-3 years, normally, of life that might be meaningful to their parents, but without significant brain function, I'm not sure how meaningful it is to the child. I know that I would not want to be born to that.

I don't think that Down's Syndrome is in that category -- I wouldn't want to be Down's Syndrome, either, but they clearly are capable of having meaningful lives, making decisions, etc.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 2,182]

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I only ask because recently someone told me that they trusted women to make the right decision regarding abortion. It occurred to be that if their judgement was so poor that they didn't use proper protection, were they really in the best position to make a life and death decision on whether they should abort an unborn child?

I certainly wouldn't trust a (theoretically) celibate Catholic priest or bishop with that decision.

However, it really isn't any of my business, OR YOURS EITHER, what a woman does with her own body.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Coreece 190]

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it really isn't any of my business, OR YOURS EITHER, what a woman does with her own body.

...and if that was the case perhaps it wouldn't really be an issue...to pro-lifers it's about the child's body.

Not too many people are gonna feel sorry for irresponsible women.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Gravitymaster 0]

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I only ask because recently someone told me that they trusted women to make the right decision regarding abortion. It occurred to be that if their judgement was so poor that they didn't use proper protection, were they really in the best position to make a life and death decision on whether they should abort an unborn child?

I certainly wouldn't trust a (theoretically) celibate Catholic priest or bishop with that decision.

However, it really isn't any of my business, OR YOURS EITHER, what a woman does with her own body.

If she was pregnant with my child it would be.

[normiss 906]

Good luck with that with US Family Law.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Perhap. Still doesn't mean it would be none of my business.

[oldwomanc6 60]

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Perhap. Still doesn't mean it would be none of my business.

No one said it wouldn't concern you, but would you, IF you were so irresponsible as to knock up some poor unsuspecting girl, want someone other than you two, to determine what should be done?

Would you hold her body hostage until "your" heir was born?

Your original question to me seemed to indicate that there was some sort of litmus test as to determine responsible/worthy behavior.

lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Perhap. Still doesn't mean it would be none of my business.

No one said it wouldn't concern you, but would you, IF you were so irresponsible as to knock up some poor unsuspecting girl, want someone other than you two, to determine what should be done?

Would you hold her body hostage until "your" heir was born?

Your original question to me seemed to indicate that there was some sort of litmus test as to determine responsible/worthy behavior.

I never made any such claim. I was responding to kallends statement that "it is none of my business".

The question is, do you think someone who has shown bad judgement is, in most cases the best person to be making life and death decisions? Would you continue to use a parachute packer who had shown poor judgement and packed a few streamers or had just packed a horseshoe malfunction?