Arizona Immigration Law Revisited

[dmcoco84 5]

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I don't listen to Obama.

You don't...? Cause I do... But I just sigh in disgust about 99% percent of the time he speaks.


All Laws, always, face abuse... and that is exactly the purpose of our structure, the Constitution... to bind the hands of power, and do the best job to prevent abuse, and if not, fixed laws as best as possible to prevent abuse... associated with Human Nature. And to appropriately punish abuse you can't prevent.

See... our nation was built on the idea that the American people are a people of Merit... That we are a good and decent people... and will do our best to right wrongs and learn from our mistakes.

Read Washington... he clearly states that he has full faith in the American people and that even though they will make mistakes... they will always eventually get it right... IF TOLD THE TRUTH.

Something our leaders are not doing.

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Arizona's law is a bad law and is guaranteed to be abused.

Crap... its mirror on Federal Law, It will be upheld.

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For every 'nice encounter'

I didn't say it was a nice encounter... those cops were douche bags!

I'm a citizen... had no warrants... and trespassing was not posted... I know my rights... So I could care less if he wanted to waste his time.

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You sir, are naive to think that giving someone 'power' will not be abused.

No... I've read Publius... fully aware.

[dmcoco84 5]

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I actually wish the democrats would just hand power over to them, vote unanimously 100% in favor of whatever measures the Reb's want. It would only take 8 years for the complete annihilation of the Republican party for the destructive policies that would be implemented and would probably end up in a civil war.

If Only! If Only!

As long as McCain and Boner are gone...

Progressive R's are no different than Progressive D's.

Obama = Road to Serfdom.

McCain = Slightly longer Road to Serfdom.

And both want the borders open.

[tkhayes 348]

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Something our leaders are not doing.

Which is exactly my point as to why the law will be abused.

[dmcoco84 5]

That doesn't even make sense.

[GQ_jumper 4]

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Don't be naive. LEOs in the US have used "lawful" pretexts to stop people since the Constitution was first ratified. This law will not just enable, but result, in LEOs fabricating "lawful" reasons to stop people who look Hispanic.

Absolute Crap.

So using the Presidents example... eating ice cream with your kid. What is the legal justification for a cop to walk up to a Hispanic citizen and ask for ID?

You have to get to the ice cream, and eventually leave. There's always a technical violation to cite motorists for, and pedestrian jaywalking rules are rarely followed or enforced, but still present.

May not be often enforced, but they are still laws, so if you break them you are subject to being stopped. That was an incredibly poor example, you just GAVE the officer lawful justification for the stop. That can happen to any one of us; pass a cop on a good day with out your seatbelt and nothing happens, but catch him on a bad day and you get pulled over. Whether you think its fair or not that you were the one to be ticketed when the driver next to you was doing the same the fact remains that you broke the law and you will have to produce you "papers".

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[DanG 1]

What about, "driving erratically" or "unsignaled lane change." You can't prove you didn't do one of those things. It's his word against yours, but once you've been pulled over, papers, please.

This law is ripe for abuse, and the ill effects will be against law abiding citizens, not just illegal aliens.

- Dan G

[kallend 2,182]

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Don't be naive. LEOs in the US have used "lawful" pretexts to stop people since the Constitution was first ratified. This law will not just enable, but result, in LEOs fabricating "lawful" reasons to stop people who look Hispanic.

Absolute Crap.

So using the Presidents example... eating ice cream with your kid. What is the legal justification for a cop to walk up to a Hispanic citizen and ask for ID?

You have to get to the ice cream, and eventually leave. There's always a technical violation to cite motorists for, and pedestrian jaywalking rules are rarely followed or enforced, but still present.

May not be often enforced, but they are still laws, so if you break them you are subject to being stopped. That was an incredibly poor example, you just GAVE the officer lawful justification for the stop. That can happen to any one of us; pass a cop on a good day with out your seatbelt and nothing happens, but catch him on a bad day and you get pulled over. Whether you think its fair or not that you were the one to be ticketed when the driver next to you was doing the same the fact remains that you broke the law and you will have to produce you "papers".

One of the distinguishing features of a police state is the existence of numerous trivial rules that can always be used to justify arrest and conviction. Unfortunately, folks like you seem to be wishing this on the USA.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[GeorgiaDon 385]

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Don't be naive. LEOs in the US have used "lawful" pretexts to stop people since the Constitution was first ratified. This law will not just enable, but result, in LEOs fabricating "lawful" reasons to stop people who look Hispanic.

Absolute Crap.

So using the Presidents example... eating ice cream with your kid. What is the legal justification for a cop to walk up to a Hispanic citizen and ask for ID?

You have to get to the ice cream, and eventually leave. There's always a technical violation to cite motorists for, and pedestrian jaywalking rules are rarely followed or enforced, but still present.

May not be often enforced, but they are still laws, so if you break them you are subject to being stopped. That was an incredibly poor example, you just GAVE the officer lawful justification for the stop. That can happen to any one of us; pass a cop on a good day with out your seatbelt and nothing happens, but catch him on a bad day and you get pulled over. Whether you think its fair or not that you were the one to be ticketed when the driver next to you was doing the same the fact remains that you broke the law and you will have to produce you "papers".

Well OK, so say it's a hot day (in Arizona, who'd have thought that could happen) and your ice cream melts a bit and drips on the sidewalk. LITTERING. There's always something.

One problem I have with the Arizona law is that is empowers anyone who believes any government agency (police, DMV, school boards, whatever) who is not enforcing the law to sue, and for significant amounts of money. On the other hand, it shields police and others from lawsuits or other legal actions that might result from them enforcing the law. Now, if your local police feel they will be sued if they are not seen by all and sundry as aggressively enforcing the law, and no bad consequences will follow from them crossing the line from time to time, isn't it reasonable to expect that the line will all but cease to exist?

In Alabama, which pretty much copied Arizona's law, they are running into fun little issues like this one, where a Mercedes Benz executive was stopped (his rental car didn't have proper tags) and then jailed because his German licence didn't meet the Alabama law. Intended or not, this sends the message that Alabama is hostile to foreign investment (Mercedes built a manufacturing plant in Alabama in 1993), which may already be causing other potential investors to look elsewhere.

I'm certainly sympathetic to the desire to curb illegal immigration; what I don't understand is the preference for chainsaw type remedies over a skillfully wielded scalpel. People come here for jobs. The purpose of the e-Verify system is to provide an easy, free, fast mechanism for employers to check the employability status of any applicant. Yet, the business lobby has successfully blocked any legal requirement for them to use the system, and some states have made it illegal for employers to use the system to check on the status of applicants. It doesn't help that Congress has failed to appropriate funding to improve the speed or reliability of the system. Instead, people prefer "show-me-your-papers" laws, and fences that would require expropriation of all the private land adjoining the entire border of the country, plus trillions of dollars to build and maintain. And then what? It's not like the Berlin Wall ever stood alongside the Statue of Liberty as a symbol of freedom.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[rehmwa 2]

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folks like you seem to be wishing this on the USA.

I'm pretty sure someone evil said something like what you just wrote at one time or another.....

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[GQ_jumper 4]

There is nothing wrong with wishing the government would step up and do their job Kallend. If they fail to enforce the rules then I expect state and local authorities to do so in their absence. This law doesn't give police any powers that are not possessed by federal agencies. All they are doing is taking action in the absence of it.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[tkhayes 348]

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There is nothing wrong with wishing the government would step up and do their job Kallend. If they fail to enforce the rules then I expect state and local authorities to do so in their absence.

Post 83 already gave a real-life example of an example of surely what the law was NOT intended to do.

So to say that the local authorities would only be doing what the feds SHOULD be doing is a stretch. I do not believe that federal authorities would be going around arrested german businessmen.

The law is an abuse of power, guaranteed to be abused.

And your assumption is that local police should have the same power possessed by federal agencies, which is also likely unconstitutional.

[dmcoco84 5]

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What about, "driving erratically" or "unsignaled lane change." You can't prove you didn't do one of those things. It's his word against yours, but once you've been pulled over, papers, please.

What about "weaving"...?

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/startrek-fans-questionable-traffic-stops-raises-concerns-over-constitutional-rights/

And I like how at the very end it says...

"Although the roadside incident involving Huff occurred on Dec. 4, 2011, Reichert appears to have a history dating back several years of questionable police work."
http://www.stltoday.com/suburban-journals/illinois/news/crime/new-hearing-planned-in-officer-s-legal-battle/article_c6fda5b4-c8c5-51f6-ba20-6c786c48cbef.html?mode=story

Yes, there are cops who break the law... there ARE douche bags out there. But there are also amazing officers who are true public servants, who do the right things and have honor. And after 4 years in an ER, I have gotten to know many of them. My father was also a SWAT Medic for many years... interesting to hear officers true feelings on the drug war.


But again, clearly seen from this thread, the only disapproval of this law, come from the "potential abuse", based on a foundation that all AZ cops are racist, and will be out on the hunt for any Hispanic they can find and, check up on.

Its Crap! And again... aside from, Illegal Aliens, who are breaking the law like drinking and driving, while illegally driving, while illegally in the country... I am not concerned with those coming here to work (and that aspect is the easiest part of this problem to solve, and IT IS NOT with amnesty). I am concerned about those coming across our border who are involved with the cartels, Hezbollah (AND Hamas), and/or the Muslim Brotherhood.

The Federal Government is breaking the contract, The Constitution, so the states will pick up the slack until we can get a president who will do the job.

I could care less if Obama has deported 100 times as many Illegal Aliens as Bush... Not only do they come right back across, but I'm done playing that D vs R game that so many of you on this forum are engulfed in and unable to wake up from (By Design). Shall we stop comparing party presidents to other party presidents and start comparing our leaders to George Washington.



Now... for the example:

So it was a lawful contact because the car had no tags (ironic since he is an automobile executive - probably should have noticed that when he walked the car looking for damage, as you are supposed to do before leaving the lot)... but he did have a form of ID which corroborates his story (I can't help but assume he told the officer his business matters)... and you then have an officer who arrests him instead of taking him to the hotel and getting the passport.

Sounds like an officer who needs a reprimand...

And a German, who was breaking Federal Law by not having his passport on him. And Think Progress states that he didn't even have his German Driver's License on him. Ummm... Dumbass?

So, technically, both parties are in fault... and, we are clearly seeing incompetent Alabama police officers given this example:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/02/alabama-car-boss-immigration-law

If correct...

"Yada was stopped in Leeds, Alabama, at a checkpoint set up by police to catch unlicenced drivers. He was ticketed on the spot, despite the fact that he showed an international driver's licence, a valid passport and a US work permit."

... Umm, why was he arrested? What was he ticketed for?

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and the ill effects will be against law abiding citizens, not just illegal aliens.

Given my personal FL example... that is ridiculous. As a citizen, I am not required to carry any ID on me if I walk down the street to get some ice cream. But I am required to have my driver's license if I drive... but even so, with my name (and state), any officer in any state can look you up and match you to your description.

That too is crap... law abiding citizens are are not going to be locked up, and to date, there has not been any incident showing that... cause if there was, you would have already posted it.

And if its a lawful contact... an officer has every right to ask for identification.

[GQ_jumper 4]

Given my personal FL example... that is ridiculous. As a citizen, I am not required to carry any ID on me if I walk down the street to get some ice cream. But I am required to have my driver's license if I drive... but even so, with my name (and state), any officer in any state can look you up and match you to your description.

That too is crap... law abiding citizens are are not going to be locked up, and to date, there has not been any incident showing that... cause if there was, you would have already posted it.

And if its a lawful contact... an officer has every right to ask for identification. ***

+1

Compared to the way foreigners are treated in other countries this law is very tepid. Its simple, do the right thing and you have nothing to fear.

Considering the type of treatment I've received when I was the foreigner this law is child's play. You show me an incident of the police trying to ID you as someone the mafia was looking for after being stabbed by them so they could turn you back over to your attackers happening here in the US and then I'll agree that our police are not trying to protect us. But I seriously doubt that other than rare exceptions the police here have those sorts of intentions.

Either way though I will always have one hell of a story to tell along with some great scars to back it up. Getting stabbed in "The Nam" now THAT is a vacation story I'll never forget!

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[tkhayes 348]

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there ARE douche bags out there. But there are also amazing officers who are true public servants, who do the right things and have honor.

glad you finally realize where the problem lies.

i do not like laws that hand the douchebags more power.

Just like people would rather pass laws to dienfranchise thousands of voters to save a hundred that might be illegal.

I air on the side of freedom and the Constitution for law abiding CITIZENS. not law abiding POLICE OFFICERS.

[RonD1120 62]

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By any reasonable measure Jesus was a liberal; indeed He was clearly a communist, as he urged the rich to give away all their possessions, and urged us all to work every day to help the less fortunate.

It seems odd to me that a person who claims to be a Christian, and who holds all who differ in such contempt, would desire an America that would exclude Jesus Christ and all who practice so much of the actual message He preached.

Really, Ron, you'd better hope that come your judgement day you're not held to account for the deep hatred you so lovingly nurture in your soul.

Don

Sorry Don, I don't hate like you think I do. There are many situations, circumstances and political activities that takes place in America that really pisses me off. However, those scenarios do not bring me to hate. If you could spend some 1:1 time with me you would understand.

And sorry again, you cannot judge my Christian walk because you simply do not comprehend what the path is or what comprises spiritual life. But, that's OK.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

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"For those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know." ~Unknown from the post Vietnam War era.

The liberals in this country have grown out of the protesters of the the 60's. They have been protected to the point where they are infected. They do not like the U.S.A. and they want to reduce its status in the world. They are the domestic enemies of the U.S. Constitution. IMHO

Anyone who thinks that a single bullet fired or a single casualty suffered in Vietnam or Iraq resulted in preserving or protecting American freedom is a fool.

The Conservatives in this country, once a label for those fat and bloated by wealth, or culturally demented by generations of institutionalized racism, have grown out of the Klansmen and John Birchers of the 50's and 60's. They were enticed by Goldwater, co-opted by Nixon and manipulated like chess pieces by Reagan, and they were first in line when called upon by the draft-dodging Bush and Cheney to gullibly swallow the toxin of the Patriot Act like pablum, and sacrifice their children to foreign wars that did not buy the American people a single extra day of security in their homes and beds. Between 2001 and 2008 they SUCCEEDED in reducing the US's status in the world. They are the domestic enemies of the U.S. Constitution.

No way that I can buy in to that analysis.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[tkhayes 348]

actually your Christian beliefs are 'hate' you are against gays, you use 'God' as your 'comfort' when killing someone in battle.

You used your 'privileges' to try and undermine my business sometime ago.

these are not the traits that Jesus taught, but they are the traits of a typical twisted Christian ideology that promotes strict obedience, and thus the hatred of many others, their beliefs and their lifestyles.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I air on the side of freedom and the Constitution for law abiding CITIZENS. not law abiding POLICE OFFICERS.

unless it involves a gun.

[tkhayes 348]

I gave up on the gun issue. And for that matter, I have never proclaimed that the government should take guns away or even regulate them. What I have insisted is that the USA has a gun problem, which of course every right-winger has concluded therefore (being the commie socialist that I obviously am) that somehow I am for no guns

I actually have quite an arsenal myself. But the USA still has a gun problem.

once again you attempt to read and understand, but you end up only reading......

[kelpdiver 2]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4325703;search_string=douchebag%20wannabe%20cop;#4325703

Which says it all. You have the same credibility as H Clinton when she talks about hunting. Or anything New York.

[tkhayes 348]

The post you reference has little to do with guns or my opinion about guns. It has to do with douchebags walking around with guns pretending to be cops, facetiously in my neighborhood.

I have a drunk neighbor who likes to get into fights and create noise. He's a douchbag too. That does not mean that I have some problem with alcohol or people's right to it. It means that I have a problem with douchbag drunk neighbors that make noise.

Thanks for making my point in the previous reply to you - you do not get it, not likely that you will.

[rushmc 23]

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The post you reference has little to do with guns or my opinion about guns. It has to do with douchebags walking around with guns pretending to be cops, facetiously in my neighborhood.

I have a drunk neighbor who likes to get into fights and create noise. He's a douchbag too. That does not mean that I have some problem with alcohol or people's right to it. It means that I have a problem with douchbag drunk neighbors that make noise.

Thanks for making my point in the previous reply to you - you do not get it, not likely that you will.

The real point is, unless they agree with you, they do not get it.

The final say lies with you I guess

Well, maybe for those who dont think for themselves

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[dmcoco84 5]

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i do not like laws that hand the douchebags more power.

Like talking to a wall...

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Just like people would rather pass laws to dienfranchise thousands of voters to save a hundred that might be illegal.

Pathetic comparison... and shameful ending statement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emO2x5WBkwE

2:02 - 2:42 is great!

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I air on the side of freedom and the Constitution for law abiding CITIZENS. not law abiding POLICE OFFICERS.

Again... a wall.

So, you think there is more corruption and abuse at the local level, than at the federal level?

For airing on the side of freedom and the Constitution... that's quite contradictory to the ideas of those who gave us the Republic.

[rehmwa 2]

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For airing on the side of

i really think it's 'err' on the side of - as in if I'm making a mistake (an err), I'd rather bias this way than the other....

but I can see "air" as in airing out an opinion - getting it in the open....

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[tkhayes 348]

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So, you think there is more corruption and abuse at the local level, than at the federal level?

No, I believe that handing people more POWER leads to corruption at whatever level.

Not sure what the Youtube flick is supposed to prove, the thread is about immigration laws...... not voter ID. I was offering a sample of spending a huge amount of resources to fix a very and possibly insignificant problem - at the same time creating a bigger problem