Most Christians accept evolution

[normiss 860]

You're just confirming his comment you know.

[winsor 236]

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It's very sad that reason and critical thinking are suspended based on this mythology. Your beliefs are not rooted in reality.

Reality is overrated. Many people relapse (think Greatful Dead ca. 1991) when they come to the realization that the reality they sought to escape chemically does, in fact, blow.

"Faith" is touted as a mechanism by which one can belay the destructive pattern of reality-avoidance; this may take the form of a system of belief (take your pick), but it may manifest itself as simply faith that one can endure nasty realities without falling victim to them.

Ron adheres the the belief-based form of faith, I take the skeptic's route. Whatever works.

The bottom line is that, whatever are our differences, neither of us drink or do drugs, we are both committed to the quality of life of those around us, and we are at peace with our fate.

What is often lost is that I do not take exception to his choices, nor do I pity or feel sad for him. I only rise to the bait when someone says "this is true" without qualification. I am totally cool with someone saying "I believe this and it makes me happy."

I do not think that Ron's beliefs are borne out in reality, but I also do not think that what Ron or I believe or don't believe has any impact whatsoever on what is or is not true.

My issue is semantic (semantics being the study of meaning), and I have no expectation that anyone will come around to my way of thinking. I noticed long ago that what is glaringly obvious to me is largely incomprehensible to most people; this is, of course, why I am valuable in my chosen profession.

Anyhow, feel free to critique the message but not the messanger.

Ron is a mensch.


BSBD,

Winsor

[RonD1120 62]

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You're just confirming his comment you know.

That was my point.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[normiss 860]

It's interesting to me that such a comment makes both perspectives crystal clear.

[RonD1120 62]

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It's very sad that reason and critical thinking are suspended based on this mythology. Your beliefs are not rooted in reality.

Reality is overrated. Many people relapse (think Greatful Dead ca. 1991) when they come to the realization that the reality they sought to escape chemically does, in fact, blow.

"Faith" is touted as a mechanism by which one can belay the destructive pattern of reality-avoidance; this may take the form of a system of belief (take your pick), but it may manifest itself as simply faith that one can endure nasty realities without falling victim to them.

Ron adheres the the belief-based form of faith, I take the skeptic's route. Whatever works.

The bottom line is that, whatever are our differences, neither of us drink or do drugs, we are both committed to the quality of life of those around us, and we are at peace with our fate.

What is often lost is that I do not take exception to his choices, nor do I pity or feel sad for him. I only rise to the bait when someone says "this is true" without qualification. I am totally cool with someone saying "I believe this and it makes me happy."

I do not think that Ron's beliefs are borne out in reality, but I also do not think that what Ron or I believe or don't believe has any impact whatsoever on what is or is not true.

My issue is semantic (semantics being the study of meaning), and I have no expectation that anyone will come around to my way of thinking. I noticed long ago that what is glaringly obvious to me is largely incomprehensible to most people; this is, of course, why I am valuable in my chosen profession.

Anyhow, feel free to critique the message but not the messanger.

Ron is a mensch.


BSBD,

Winsor

Very well stated. And, thank you.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[beowulf 1]

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It's very sad that reason and critical thinking are suspended based on this mythology. Your beliefs are not rooted in reality.

They are based in spirituality.

There is nothing to even suggest that spirituality exists.

[RonD1120 62]

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It's interesting to me that such a comment makes both perspectives crystal clear.

That has been my message since Apr 09.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

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It's very sad that reason and critical thinking are suspended based on this mythology. Your beliefs are not rooted in reality.

They are based in spirituality.

There is nothing to even suggest that spirituality exists.

I believe that for you it is 100% true.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[billvon 3,080]

>There is nothing to even suggest that spirituality exists.

Well, that's like saying there is nothing to suggest that happiness exists. At some purely objective level I guess that's true, but sorta misses the point (IMO.)

[beowulf 1]

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>There is nothing to even suggest that spirituality exists.

Well, that's like saying there is nothing to suggest that happiness exists. At some purely objective level I guess that's true, but sorta misses the point (IMO.)

That is not true. With the proper equipment scientists have been able to measure emotional responses in the brain.

[beowulf 1]

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It's very sad that reason and critical thinking are suspended based on this mythology. Your beliefs are not rooted in reality.

They are based in spirituality.

There is nothing to even suggest that spirituality exists.

I believe that for you it is 100% true.

The problem is you have no way to confirm that what you believe is real. I base my life on reality that can be confirmed.

[ibx 2]

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There is nothing to even suggest that spirituality exists.

Even though I don't believe in the whole Jesus/God/Bible nonsense I still think there is plenty of evidence that some form of sprirtualty exists, or better yet a desire for something greater.
Every culture on earth is seeking some form of enlightment or for an answer for what happens after death.

It just starts to get dangerous when you blindly follow ridicoulous beliefs without questioning them. Like everything else on earth sprittuality and beliefs are subject to change.

There is nothing wrong with following your path to enlightment, the problem begins if you think that your path is only one and you start denying other peoples quest for happieness by denying them rights and privileges based your belief system.

Why on earth are so many people against gay marriage, do you think God's gonna come down and smite you with his vengence for letting gays marry ? WTF People ?

[beowulf 1]

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I still think there is plenty of evidence that some form of sprirtualty exists

What evidence is there?

[RonD1120 62]

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The problem is you have no way to confirm that what you believe is real. I base my life on reality that can be confirmed.

The problem you have is that you can't except the fact that I don't care what you base you life on or what you think.

We are different. Read the Gestalt Prayer by Fritz Perls.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[beowulf 1]

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The problem is you have no way to confirm that what you believe is real. I base my life on reality that can be confirmed.

The problem you have is that you can't except the fact that I don't care what you base you life on or what you think.

We are different. Read the Gestalt Prayer by Fritz Perls.

That's nice, but when you claim that what you believe is real and true then I will ask for evidence to support your claims.

[billvon 3,080]

>That is not true. With the proper equipment scientists have been able to measure
>emotional responses in the brain.

Uh, right. And they have been able to measure spirituality in the brain. (For more info I recommend "Brain Science and the Biology of Belief" by Newberg.) And again, that misses the point.

[beowulf 1]

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>That is not true. With the proper equipment scientists have been able to measure
>emotional responses in the brain.

Uh, right. And they have been able to measure spirituality in the brain. (For more info I recommend "Brain Science and the Biology of Belief" by Newberg.) And again, that misses the point.

Measuring an emotional response to the idea of spirituality is not evidence that spirituality exists.

[kallend 2,112]

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>That is not true. With the proper equipment scientists have been able to measure
>emotional responses in the brain.

Uh, right. And they have been able to measure spirituality in the brain. (For more info I recommend "Brain Science and the Biology of Belief" by Newberg.) And again, that misses the point.

Well, they have detected certain brain activity in people who claim to be having a spiritual experience. But they've done that with orgasms too, and with halucinogens.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,080]

>Measuring an emotional response to the idea of spirituality is not evidence that
>spirituality exists.

So -

Measuring a emotional response we call "being happy" is proof happiness exists

But measuring an emotional response we call "spiritual experience" is not proof spirituality exsts?

I think there's a problem there.

[rehmwa 2]

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"Faith" is touted as a mechanism by which one can belay the destructive pattern of reality-avoidance; this may take the form of a system of belief (take your pick), but it may manifest itself as simply faith that one can endure nasty realities without falling victim to them.

Ron adheres the the belief-based form of faith, I take the skeptic's route. Whatever works.

The bottom line is that, whatever are our differences, neither of us drink or do drugs, we are both committed to the quality of life of those around us, and we are at peace with our fate.

What is often lost is that I do not take exception to his choices, nor do I pity or feel sad for him. I only rise to the bait when someone says "this is true" without qualification. I am totally cool with someone saying "I believe this and it makes me happy."

I do not think that Ron's beliefs are borne out in reality, but I also do not think that what Ron or I believe or don't believe has any impact whatsoever on what is or is not true.

this is absolutely excellent - and a lot more productive than veiled PAs trying to insult someone by calling them a moron or belittling others because they don't understand the other guy and can't handle it

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[beowulf 1]

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>Measuring an emotional response to the idea of spirituality is not evidence that
>spirituality exists.

So -

Measuring a emotional response we call "being happy" is proof happiness exists

But measuring an emotional response we call "spiritual experience" is not proof spirituality exsts?

I think there's a problem there.

Unless you think that spirituality is just in the mind, then yeah I suppose you could consider that evidence. From what I gather people consider spirituality to be more then just in their mind.

Happiness is an emotion and doesn't exist outside the brain and no one claims it does unlike spirituality.

[rehmwa 2]

"spirituality" is a coping mechanism - I don't find it even slightly different than "faith" as it addresses the same concerns.

Just like faith, if people want to claim to be spiritual, then that's fine, but those same people then can't mock faithful types either - pot/kettle.

the end result I care about is just whether it makes them nicer people (measure that) or terms them into jerks or weirdos - and that follows no rules, it's individual

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[beowulf 1]

That's nice, but when people make claims that spirituality is a real thing outside their imagination then that's where they need evidence to support their claims.

[beowulf 1]

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>Measuring an emotional response to the idea of spirituality is not evidence that
>spirituality exists.

So -

Measuring a emotional response we call "being happy" is proof happiness exists

But measuring an emotional response we call "spiritual experience" is not proof spirituality exsts?

I think there's a problem there.

Another way to look at this is I can imagine a unicorn and I could get scientists to measure my mind while imagining a unicorn and see the state it's in, but that isn't evidence that unicorns exist.

[rehmwa 2]

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That's nice, but when people make claims that spirituality is a real thing outside their imagination then that's where they need evidence to support their claims.

Actually - they don't need to 'provide evidence' (that's a silly way to respond to them, it's non-productive and confrontative), what is needed is a discussion why any "absolute claim" is a non-starter and doesn't even fit the bounds of any discussion on faith or spirituality. Essentially, they are exagerating the verbage in an attempt to show the strength of their personal (and unprovable) belief. That part can be called out - but asking for 'evidence' is just kinda jerky since, by definition, it can't exist.

in that, I agree - Winsor stated it pretty nicely and pretty much exactly my position on it.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants