Why NOT death penalty?

[skypuppy 1]

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>Wrong. If you kill em, they're dead.

So what? Who cares?

>They're not going to walk past the fence and rape some poor housewife
>who happens to live down the block

Agreed. Nor are they going to do that inside a 10x10 cell.

The point is, he escaped and went on to rape and severely beat an innocent women, who suffered brain damage from the beating. Just saying they can't excape, or that they won't later be paroled, as davjon has said, doesn't make it so.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[Gravitymaster 0]

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I don't quite understand how you could think someone confined to a high security prison in a remote area of Alaska could pose a danger to society. Please explain.

Remote prisons are not secure. Many people walked away from gulags in Russia or from other remote high security prison camps. And the fact they did it, means that these dangerous people would be free to attack society again. The purpose of the justice system is to protect society -- if they can;t be rehabilitate (and many can't), and they're liable to kill or commit other violent crime -- kill em first.

How many whos escaped gulags in Russia went on to murder innocent people?

Most who are in prison for murder in which they would qualify for the death penaly, are not psychotic killers. Many are in for killing a cheating spouse, gang related murders and drug related murders. It does not necessarily follow that if they escaped from prison, were able to cross hundreds of miles of frozen Alaskan tundra. that they would go ao a psychotic killing spree as soon as they made it back to civilization. Besides that, they could easily be tagged with an RF transmitter inside their bodies so that if they were able to escape, they would be easy to find.

[billvon 3,114]

>The point is, he escaped and went on to rape and severely beat an >innocent women, who suffered brain damage from the beating.

Which he could have done whether he was in prison for life or on death row. Solution - prevent escapes.

[davjohns 1]

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>Life with parole, even with the inherent risks that I've outlined, is
>preferable to execution. Correct?

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. Life WITHOUT parole is what capital punishment is being compared against.

Sorry. That was a typo. I type pretty fast and sometimes my hands outrun each other. I meant life without.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[davjohns 1]

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>The point is, he escaped and went on to rape and severely beat an >innocent women, who suffered brain damage from the beating.

Which he could have done whether he was in prison for life or on death row. Solution - prevent escapes.

No offense, but you sometimes miss the glaring holes in your arguments. Dead people almost never escape.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[normiss 893]

Just like the live ones.

[davjohns 1]

I was trying to be nice. If we are laying money, I'll take the live guy. You can have the dead one.

On a related note, we are arguing lots of 'what if', 'should be', 'could be' without lots of facts. I'm trying to find something that gives us an idea how many people walk after life without parole sentences. I came across the case of Kenneth McDuff who was sentenced to death, commuted to life and later paroled. Killed eight more people thereafter. Again, I don't like the exception from which we make rules. It's just chilling. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_McDuff

If anyone can find some stats on escapes, paroles, pardons, etc. after 'life without' sentences, it would be nice to discuss facts for a change.

I'm very persuaded by Wendy's acceptance of the risks involved with 'life without'. I just want to see what kind of risks we are really talking about.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[davjohns 1]

I'm having trouble finding statistics on how many prisoners are released after a LWOP sentence. I'm finding individual instances, but no large scale stats. Then, I found this article by someone opposing LWOP. It seems that people who receive life sentences and are later released (apparently someone has the stats) are less likely to be repeat offenders compared to other sentences. ???? I find that a bit disturbing. They are arguing that people who committed crimes heinous enough to receive life sentences are really not that bad. She does cite at least 285 people in Pennsylvania who were released after life sentences. That number is also disturbing to me.

http://sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/inc_federalsentencingreporter.pdf

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[davjohns 1]

This is my concern:

Headline - Young killers serving life without parole may get chance at freedom
The Supreme Court, in a case involving two 14-year-olds, will consider whether such sentences are cruel and unusual. A California bill allowing parole for juvenile murderers will be addressed this week.

I read these two cases. If the SCOTUS declares life without to be cruel and unusual, all LWOP sentences get commuted automatically. This is what happened with Charles Manson. The California courts thought SCOTUS declared the death penalty to be cruel and unusual. All death row inmates had their sentences commuted. That's why Manson keeps going before parole boards.

So, in the case of juveniles, we face the possibility that they can commit the most heinous of crimes, and expect to return to society rather than receive the death penalty or LWOP? Concerning.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[Southern_Man 0]

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I read these two cases. If the SCOTUS declares life without to be cruel and unusual, all LWOP sentences get commuted automatically.

So, in the case of juveniles, we face the possibility that they can commit the most heinous of crimes, and expect to return to society rather than receive the death penalty or LWOP? Concerning.

I do not believe your first statement is correct. This is only concerning LWOP for juveniles. It is unclear how widely or narrowly the case would be decided but it would certainly not apply to all case of people serving LWOP.

In the second case the SCOTUS has already decided the the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment when applied to juveniles (Roper v. Simmons). They have also decided it is cruel and unusual to sentence the mentally retarded to death.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[rehmwa 2]

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No offense, but you sometimes miss the glaring holes in your arguments. Dead people almost never escape.

but they do vote

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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And my point is that as a society you have an obligation to protect the weak, to help them. I believe that noblesse oblige.

I agree with that comment - the issue is your 'weak' are the mentally ill and violent. And my 'weak' are the victims of yours. Who do we protect from who?

makes the discussion interesting - but I respect the motivations if not the conclusions

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[davjohns 1]

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I read these two cases. If the SCOTUS declares life without to be cruel and unusual, all LWOP sentences get commuted automatically.

So, in the case of juveniles, we face the possibility that they can commit the most heinous of crimes, and expect to return to society rather than receive the death penalty or LWOP? Concerning.

I do not believe your first statement is correct. This is only concerning LWOP for juveniles. It is unclear how widely or narrowly the case would be decided but it would certainly not apply to all case of people serving LWOP.

In the second case the SCOTUS has already decided the the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment when applied to juveniles (Roper v. Simmons). They have also decided it is cruel and unusual to sentence the mentally retarded to death.

Thanks for the correction. I did not mean to imply that all LWOP would be commuted. Clearly just the juveniles. Then, the question is, how far behind is that for adults?

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[davjohns 1]

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No offense, but you sometimes miss the glaring holes in your arguments. Dead people almost never escape.

but they do vote

Get back in the other thread! :)

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[Quagmirian 40]

Speaking as someone who lives a few hundred yards from Dennis Nilsen, I'm happy for people like this to be locked away for eternity, although I'm not saying that life in prison comes without its own problems. I'm just saying that it's the preferred option.

[davjohns 1]

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Speaking as someone who lives a few hundred yards from Dennis Nilsen, I'm happy for people like this to be locked away for eternity, although I'm not saying that life in prison comes without its own problems. I'm just saying that it's the preferred option.

Had to look him up. Purely emotional response is that I would prefer that he be dead. Purely cognitive response is that I prefer that he be dead.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[normiss 893]

With the risk of you taking this completely wrong...
Where do you get the right to decide to take someone's life?
So dismissively even.
Sad. Very Sad.

[Rstanley0312 1]

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Speaking as someone who lives a few hundred yards from Dennis Nilsen, I'm happy for people like this to be locked away for eternity, although I'm not saying that life in prison comes without its own problems. I'm just saying that it's the preferred option.

Had to look him up. Purely emotional response is that I would prefer that he be dead. Purely cognitive response is that I prefer that he be dead.

For my entire adult life I have been in favor of the death penalty but I am now changing my tune. I do not like the idea of killing someone anymore but i also do not like that there is a chance a murderer can go free or that they live a life in prison with amenities that they do not deserve. I no longer believe in the death penalty but I also think there should be a serious change in our prison system. I realize that prisoners with nothing to do cause more problems thus I see the need for them to have something to do but I struggle with "how much is too much". I do not have an answer but I will say now that I do not support the death penalty any more but I also do not support someone who murders another to be able to get out of jail or have access to things that they should not have. Our society will never allow prisoners to be thrown in to a hole and fed three squares a day but for murders I think this is what should happen.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[davjohns 1]

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With the risk of you taking this completely wrong...
Where do you get the right to decide to take someone's life?
So dismissively even.
Sad. Very Sad.

I don't. That was just my thoughts on the matter. However, I think this guy has clearly abrogated his right to live and society would be better off without him in existance. When reading his story, I find my heart and mind are in one accord on this matter. I obviously have no authority to make it a reality.

Please read about him and then see if I'm being dismissive or if he has made himself so repugnant to humanity that my reaction is legitimate.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[normiss 893]

Oh I clearly saw how violent an animal he was.
Texas. Overcrowding in the prison system....
Overcrowding should NEVER cause a violent criminal to earn gain time IMO.

But if killing is SOOOO wrong that it makes you want to kill someone ......

[BillyVance 35]

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What should we do with people that continue to kill while imprisoned?

Throw them in the hole for the rest of their life. Solitary confinement. They can sleep on the concrete floor. There's no other place in society for those fucks.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Rstanley0312 1]

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What should we do with people that continue to kill while imprisoned?

Throw them in the hole for the rest of their life. Solitary confinement. They can sleep on the concrete floor. There's no other place in society for those fucks.

That's what I think Billy but I do not think it will ever happen.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[Shotgun 1]

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Where do you get the right to decide to take someone's life?

Just curious...

Do you think most people should have the right to "stand their ground," even if that might involve taking someone's life?

Do you think we had the right to kill Osama bid Laden, or any of the other "terrorists" we've killed?

I realize these are different situations, but I'm curious what your answer is.

[killler 2]

To throw them in a hole would be CRUEL and not aloud by the SCOTUS.... This thread was about the use of the death penalty for a low life piece of shit and his friends..

Two guys in the CT case raped a 11 and 17 yr old girls then poured gas on the live ,nude bodies of the two and set their beds alight... They had also raped the 48 yr old mother...

Now ... I want you to think about a little 11 yr old girl being beat, raped and then burned alive... And if you think that piece of shit has any right to one more breath... YOUR THE PROBLEM with this world...

Killler....

[rehmwa 2]

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To throw them in a hole would be CRUEL and not aloud by the SCOTUS.... This thread was about the use of the death penalty for a low life piece of shit and his friends..

Two guys in the CT case raped a 11 and 17 yr old girls then poured gas on the live ,nude bodies of the two and set their beds alight... They had also raped the 48 yr old mother...

Now ... I want you to think about a little 11 yr old girl being beat, raped and then burned alive... And if you think that piece of shit has any right to one more breath... YOUR THE PROBLEM with this world...

Killler....

that kind of post doesn't help the cause for support of reasoned capital punishment - this is exactly why people claim that CP is revenge, rather than a reasoned action with the intent to protect the weak from the predators

the decision to execute a criminal needs to be unemotional, thought out completely, reluctant - for the sole purpose of permanently removing a known threat to all law abiding citizens, without even the remote possibility of repeat offenses that any kind on incarceration may allow (as noted in the thread - life without parole can be legislated by each state... so can reversing a law allowing life without parole)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants