RonD1120 62
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GeorgiaDon 385
Your choice of words and phraseology (here and in numerous other threads) indicates you know little to nothing about the constitution. Even if AA had a perfect success rate, it is a violation of the constitution for the government (= the courts in this case) to require anyone to participate in a fundamentally religious exercise.QuoteYour choice of words and phraseology indicates you know little to nothing about the subject.
Why is it so hard for you to understand that your freedom to adhere to your particular religious beliefs only comes with the condition that everyone else is also free to follow their own beliefs, or even no religious belief at all, as long as those beliefs/practices don't involve harming other people. If the government were to mandate that everyone follow Christianity, and in particular a literalist interpretation of the Bible, that might be convenient for you (as you wouldn't have to alter your behavior much if at all), but you still would not be free to choose. How can lack of freedom in such a personal and important part of our lives ever be reconciled with American values (or any value system that embraces freedom)? I find it disgusting when people wrap themselves in the flag of American patriotism while seeking to strip everyone else of their freedom to decide for themselves the "meaning of life".
Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)
Marinus 0
QuoteI'm not convinced that you really know about this.
Actually I was positive about AA until I looked into it after a internet discussion (could have been on SC, btw, but I'm not sure.) I can tell you I was genuinely shocked by what I found out. I understand there's a big difference between different chapters, from genuine self-help/support groups to a form of organized religion, but in it's worst form AA is nothing less than a religious cult, including all the fun cult stuff like sexual abuse (colloquially called 13 stepping) and brainwashing.
QuoteWhat they DO is support and encourage.
The methods used are peculiar then. What, exactly is encouraging about:
"We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable."? I quit smoking 7 months ago, and thinking like that would be the most efficient way to get me to light another cig.
QuoteIn opposition to your statement, some people believe that the best people to handle certain issues is through somebody that has experience in the issue.
I've no problem with teaching from experience, but a sponsor should have some qualifications other than a desire to stay sober. It doesn't really matter if you're someone who really wants to help people or a head-case or a convicted sexual predator beside that.
QuoteI would be interested in knowing what are some of the "better treatments" you mentioned. Please don't take that to say that AA is the best treatment.
Any treatment that's not a "one solution for all" treatment. For example: someone might recover from alcoholism if his bipolar disorder is treated
QuoteI would also be interested in reading your sources that support your argument that AA produces no better result than no treatment at all.
This is a very extensive site about AA which claims it. Other then that we're kept in the dark about the "great" results by the organization, and the controversy whether it works or not is still continuing. If there were obvious results, that wouldn't be the case.
http://www.orange-papers.org/
The site is a bit too negative about AA, I think, but still an interesting read.
wolfriverjoe 1,523
QuoteI think he's spot on.
Court ordered treatment and AA is wrong IMO as the AA program is based largely on christian belief.
Treatment and AA are two very, very different things. Treatment programs often push 12 step programs as a way to stay sober, but no professional treatment program (hospital, Betty Ford, Hazelden ect.) is affiliated with AA.
You might be surprised that a majority of the membership of AA agrees that court-ordered attendance at AA is not appropriate.
The basic foundations of AA (the traditions) include the idea that the only requirement for memebership is the desire to stop drinking.
Which also means that those who don't have a desire to stop really don't belong. All are welcome, if they want to be there. But those who are being forced to be there really don't qualify.
Many AA groups have contacted the court systems and explained this to the judges and probation departments.
Other groups will, at the beginning, ask if anyone has "attendance slips" that need to be signed. The slips are signed at the very beginning of the meeting and the person is then asked if they want to be there.
It is made very, very clear that they are welcome if they want to stay, but that if they don't want to attend the meeting that they are free to go, as far as AA is concerned.
And AA has a strong Judeo-Christian flavor to it, but has no association or affiliation with any "sect, denomination or creed."
Given that the majority of people in the US that have a religious belief are a christian of some sort or another, it isn't surprising. But AA itself has no such direction and hasn't from very early on.
QuoteHis most crucial contribution at the founding of AA came from his atheism--or as he later termed it, his "militant agnosticism." He argued strongly with the early group in New York that it needed to tone down what he called the "God bit". This resulted in the much more inclusive "Higher Power" and "God as we understand him" concepts that are now so closely associated with Alcoholics Anonymous. This compromise was crucial—without it, AA would probably not have survived at all, much less have reached the number of people it has worldwide today. Jim B.'s contribution to Alcoholics Anonymous is considered second only to that of AA's two co-founders, Bill W. and Dr Bob.
Wiki Clicky
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
normiss 906
But Ron says I don't know what I'm talking about!!!!
Like I need yet another radical religious opinion on anything in my life.
Back in the day when I was doing some support and development work for AOL - I was always getting stuck on the threads involving "Friends of Bill W.".
I soon understood it was a cult type support group for alcoholics and narco users as well as those around them.
Seemed more of a recruitment path than anything else to me. That was clear to me in some writings referring to the early AA meetings as prayer meetings.
Due to it's entirely religious based program, I still say it has NO place in our court systems.
RonD1120 62
QuoteYour choice of words and phraseology (here and in numerous other threads) indicates you know little to nothing about the constitution. Even if AA had a perfect success rate, it is a violation of the constitution for the government (= the courts in this case) to require anyone to participate in a fundamentally religious exercise.QuoteYour choice of words and phraseology indicates you know little to nothing about the subject.
Why is it so hard for you to understand that your freedom to adhere to your particular religious beliefs only comes with the condition that everyone else is also free to follow their own beliefs, or even no religious belief at all, as long as those beliefs/practices don't involve harming other people. If the government were to mandate that everyone follow Christianity, and in particular a literalist interpretation of the Bible, that might be convenient for you (as you wouldn't have to alter your behavior much if at all), but you still would not be free to choose. How can lack of freedom in such a personal and important part of our lives ever be reconciled with American values (or any value system that embraces freedom)? I find it disgusting when people wrap themselves in the flag of American patriotism while seeking to strip everyone else of their freedom to decide for themselves the "meaning of life".
Don
Yeah, but, we get federal funding to run the treatment programs, always have, always will.
And, your second paragraph is way off base. It does not apply to me in any way. Yawn!
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
wolfriverjoe 1,523
Quote
Yeah, but, we get federal funding to run the treatment programs, always have, always will.
And, your second paragraph is way off base. It does not apply to me in any way. Yawn!
I hope your treatment programs are entirely seperate from AA and/or NA. You don't say that they are, but I don't see anywhere that you clearly state that they aren't.
There's nothing wrong with encouraging participants in treatment to attend 12 step programs. Requiring participation is a violation of the third tradition.
And to say the treatment program (that is funded by the government) is AA or NA is in pretty direct violation of several traditions.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
"United States Court rulings
United States courts have ruled that inmates, parolees, and probationers cannot be ordered to attend AA. Though AA itself was not deemed a religion, it was ruled that it contained enough religious components (variously described in GRIFFIN v. COUGHLIN below as, inter alia, "religion", "religious activity", "religious exercise") to make coerced attendance at AA meetings a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the constitution.[74][75] In September 2007, United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit stated that a parole office can be sued for ordering a parolee to attend AA.[76][77]"
76 Egelko, Bob (8 September 2007). "Appeals court says requirement to attend AA unconstitutional". San Francisco Chronicle. Archived from the original on 2009-12-12. Retrieved 2007-10-08.
77 Inouye v. Kemna, 504 F.3d 705, 11889 (9th Cir. 2007).
...among others.
United States courts have ruled that inmates, parolees, and probationers cannot be ordered to attend AA. Though AA itself was not deemed a religion, it was ruled that it contained enough religious components (variously described in GRIFFIN v. COUGHLIN below as, inter alia, "religion", "religious activity", "religious exercise") to make coerced attendance at AA meetings a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the constitution.[74][75] In September 2007, United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit stated that a parole office can be sued for ordering a parolee to attend AA.[76][77]"
76 Egelko, Bob (8 September 2007). "Appeals court says requirement to attend AA unconstitutional". San Francisco Chronicle. Archived from the original on 2009-12-12. Retrieved 2007-10-08.
77 Inouye v. Kemna, 504 F.3d 705, 11889 (9th Cir. 2007).
...among others.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
QuoteI understand there's a big difference between different chapters, from genuine self-help/support groups to a form of organized religion,
And therein lies your real answer. Just like an argument about religion and atheism, there is no perfect world and there are bozos on both sides of both fences.
Obviously, you choose to look at the bozos and condemn the entire program. I differ in that I support the program and condemn the bozos.
Quotebut in it's worst form AA is nothing less than a religious cult, including all the fun cult stuff like sexual abuse (colloquially called 13 stepping) and brainwashing.
I would not support that either. But I have to ask...is it the program or the people who are bastardizing it that is the problem?
QuoteThe methods used are peculiar then. What, exactly is encouraging about:
"We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable."? I quit smoking 7 months ago, and thinking like that would be the most efficient way to get me to light another cig.
Of course, YMMV. If admitting you have a problem causes you to continue the problem, then I have no response to that other than to say, find some way past that.
You may have heard that people are not going to be conducive to help if they don't want to be helped. What you have quoted is nothing more than that....an admission that the "we" needs help.
The "encouragement" comes from others.
QuoteI've no problem with teaching from experience, but a sponsor should have some qualifications other than a desire to stay sober.
Quote
I can understand what you are saying. I just don't believe that it would take a scholastic degree of any sort to successfully assist someone in this.
RE: smoking...I've been told that smokers have no leg to stand on telling others not to smoke. I don't understand the logic of disregarding good advice just because it comes from someone who doesn't practice that good advice themselves.
In that sense, even though I don't agree with the logic, I can see how an alcoholic could respond like that. So, AA uses those who DO practice what they preach and who also has some experience with being an alcoholic. I see the benefit of that. No college degree needed for that, IMO.QuoteAny treatment that's not a "one solution for all" treatment. For example: someone might recover from alcoholism if his bipolar disorder is treated
Well, you're talking about two separate problems. Yes, eliminating one may eliminate the other...who knows. Maybe eliminating the alcohol will eliminate the bipolar symptoms. I dunno,
If one were treating bipolar symptoms, then yes, maybe a degreed doctor of some sort might be more beneficial.QuoteThis is a very extensive site about AA which claims it. Other then that we're kept in the dark about the "great" results by the organization, and the controversy whether it works or not is still continuing. If there were obvious results, that wouldn't be the case.
http://www.orange-papers.org/
I'm reluctant to put much faith in unbiased truthfulness of a site that beacons "One Man's Analysis of Alcoholics Anonymous....." on the front page.
Here are some references that support a positive outcome with AA. Yes, there are just as many saying the opposite.
- Moos, Rudolf H.; Moos, BS (June 2006). "Participation in Treatment and Alcoholics Anonymous: A 16-Year Follow-Up of Initially Untreated Individuals". Journal of Clinical Psychology 62 (6): 735–750. doi:10.1002/jclp.20259. PMC 2220012. PMID 16538654.
- Moos, Rudolf H.; Moos, BS (February 2006). "Rates and predictors of relapse after natural and treated remission from alcohol use disorders". Addiction 101 (2): 212–222. doi:10.1111/j.1360-0443.2006.01310.x. PMC 1976118. PMID 16445550.
- Moos, Rudolf H.; Moos, BS (February 2004). "Long-Term Influence of Duration and Frequency of Participation in Alcoholics Anonymous on Individuals with Alcohol Use Disorders". Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology 72 (1): 81–90. doi:10.1037/0022-006X.72.1.81. PMID 14756617.
- a b Humphreys, Keith; Moos, R (May 2001). "Can encouraging substance abuse patients to participate in self-help groups reduce demand for health care? A quasi-experimental study". Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental Research 25 (5): 711–716. doi:10.1111/j.1530-0277.2001.tb02271.x. ISSN 1530-0277. PMID 11371720.
- Morgenstern, Jon; Laboview, Erich; McCrady, Barbara S; Kahler, Christopher W; Frey, Ronni M (October 1997). "Affiliation with Alcoholics Anonymous after treatment: a student of its therapeutic effects and mechanisms of action". Journal of consulting and clinical psychology 65 (5): 768–888. doi:10.1037/0022-006X.65.5.768. PMID 9337496.
- Tonigan, J. Scott (2001). "Benefits of Alcoholics Anonymous Attendance – Replication of Findings Between Clinical Research Sites in Project MATCH". Alcoholism Treatment Quarterly 19 (1): 67–77. doi:10.1300/J020v19n01_05.
And then there are those who will reject ANYthing, right wrong or indifferent just because there is "religion" associated with it. Not very bright in my book but there you have it.My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
jakee 1,611
QuoteCan you discuss a relevant political topic without falling back on a belief system whether it be religion or atheism?
Relevant to what? Religion? No, that would be ridiculous. Anything else? Yes, of course I can and regularly do. But since this isn't a politics thread that's not what I'm doing, and neither are you.
So, what are the "actual issues" that atheists can't discuss? Specifics, please, or I just may have to accuse you of simply spouting meaningless soundbites from out of your arsehole.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
QuoteRelevant to what? Religion? No, that would be ridiculous.
Well, at least you explained your own perception of things.
So, what are the "actual issues" that atheists can't discuss? Specifics, please, or I just may have to accuse you of simply spouting meaningless soundbites from out of your arsehole.
How many do you need? You obviously didn't read the one I gave you.
So be it. As long as you have your head up your own ass, you'll only see darkness.
Accuse all you like. Your opinion is worthless. Have fun with it.
G'day, ma'am.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
RonD1120 62
QuoteQuote
Yeah, but, we get federal funding to run the treatment programs, always have, always will.
And, your second paragraph is way off base. It does not apply to me in any way. Yawn!
I hope your treatment programs are entirely seperate from AA and/or NA. You don't say that they are, but I don't see anywhere that you clearly state that they aren't.
There's nothing wrong with encouraging participants in treatment to attend 12 step programs. Requiring participation is a violation of the third tradition.
And to say the treatment program (that is funded by the government) is AA or NA is in pretty direct violation of several traditions.
I am retired now. The treatment programs where I was employed were in Polk, Pasco and Hillsborough Counties FL. AA/NA were required in most phases. Some outpatient treatment programs strongly recommend attendance. If the treatment is court ordered, mandatory attendance in addition to actual treatment is almost guaranteed in the judge's order.
In the last program of my career, we provided the dates, times and places for the meetings and a form to be signed by the meeting leader. The forms were to be presented to the client's probation officer. If the client did not attend at least one meeting or a church, of their choice, service per week it became a treatment question opportunity.
We reported to the probation office regarding the client's participation in our program. The PO had the final authority. Unsuccessful completion of the program was a violation of probation. If the client was cooperative in the other areas of treatment, did not have any dirty urines, but did not attend outside meetings, he/she could still complete the program successfully. In such instances the PO would probably not cause them any further grief.
The question of federal, state or local government funding is answered with the AA/NA tradition of allowing the client a personal definition of "higher power."
In some areas, the only programs available are funded by a church organization entirely and therefore do not receive any government funding. Teen Challenge is an example. A judge can order an offender to such treatment as an alternative to incarceration.
Andy9o8 could weigh in here with a more legal explanation.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
RonD1120 62
Quote"United States Court rulings
United States courts have ruled that inmates, parolees, and probationers cannot be ordered to attend AA. Though AA itself was not deemed a religion, it was ruled that it contained enough religious components (variously described in GRIFFIN v. COUGHLIN below as, inter alia, "religion", "religious activity", "religious exercise") to make coerced attendance at AA meetings a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the constitution.[74][75] In September 2007, United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit stated that a parole office can be sued for ordering a parolee to attend AA.[76][77]"
76 Egelko, Bob (8 September 2007). "Appeals court says requirement to attend AA unconstitutional". San Francisco Chronicle. Archived from the original on 2009-12-12. Retrieved 2007-10-08.
77 Inouye v. Kemna, 504 F.3d 705, 11889 (9th Cir. 2007).
...among others.
Somehow, it is or was different in FL. See my post #70 above.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
Quote
Somehow, it is or was different in FL. See my post #70 above.
Yes, I know. I was raised in Tampa and I know for a fact that judges did order it as a condition of probation but that was a long time ago and I have no clue as to how it stands today.
Well, let me clarify to be more precise....in the cases I 'know' of, it may have been that the judge ordered evaluation and/or treatment of SOME sort and AA was an acceptable option.
I just ran across those references and thought to post them as discussion material.
Please don't get me started on the court system and judges doing whatever the hell they damned well please.
HI! My name is Andy and I'm a dizzy.com-aholic!
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
Marinus 0
QuoteObviously, you choose to look at the bozos and condemn the entire program. I differ in that I support the program and condemn the bozos.
You read the part were I said that there's big differences between the approach of the chapters, eh? While my outlook is more negative than yours there's still room for nuance.
QuoteI would not support that either. But I have to ask...is it the program or the people who are bastardizing it that is the problem?
I think the system has a large potential for abuse, I can easily see why some people call it a religious sect, but ultimately it's of course the people who interpret the method used.
QuoteIf admitting you have a problem causes you to continue the problem, then I have no response to that other than to say, find some way past that.
You may have heard that people are not going to be conducive to help if they don't want to be helped. What you have quoted is nothing more than that....an admission that the "we" needs help.
The "encouragement" comes from others.
This is a bit more than admitting you've a problem, it's admitting you've a problem you can't fix yourself. It has to be fixed by someone/something else. This is not an encouragement at all. It's almost setting someone up for failure to stay sober, by starting off with a potential self-fulfilling prophecy.
QuoteI can understand what you are saying. I just don't believe that it would take a scholastic degree of any sort to successfully assist someone in this.
That's true, but only (claiming to have) experience with being an alcoholic and a desire to quit drinking isn't enough, of course. This has great potential to become a disaster.
QuoteWell, you're talking about two separate problems.
I think there's a consensus that drug addiction and mental issues are often closely related. The theory is that people with metal problems use drugs to medicate their selves. When you treat the mental issues, there's a better chance at recovery from addiction.
QuoteI'm reluctant to put much faith in unbiased truthfulness of a site that beacons "One Man's Analysis of Alcoholics Anonymous....." on the front page.
Here are some references that support a positive outcome with AA. Yes, there are just as many saying the opposite.
It's of course not the only source that claims AA doesn't work, and it looks solid enough to me. As for the conflicting reports: I have admitted to that, but in the end it doesn't look good for AA.
We've a method that.
-Is based on the concept of faith healing
-Is non-scientific and worse, deals in outright nonsense
-Doesn't change to incorporate new scientific insights
-has potential for abuse
-It's unknown if it even works.
That's enough for me to discard it. There's still a controversy weather acupuncture works or not, and AA is as far as I'm considered in the same category. It might have a placebo-effect, but without proof that it works I discard it as a serious treatment (actually it's of course no treatment, but an almost fail-safe miracle cure. Or so they say)
RonD1120 62
QuoteQuote
Somehow, it is or was different in FL. See my post #70 above.
Yes, I know. I was raised in Tampa and I know for a fact that judges did order it as a condition of probation but that was a long time ago and I have no clue as to how it stands today.
Well, let me clarify to be more precise....in the cases I 'know' of, it may have been that the judge ordered evaluation and/or treatment of SOME sort and AA was an acceptable option.
I just ran across those references and thought to post them as discussion material.
Please don't get me started on the court system and judges doing whatever the hell they damned well please.
HI! My name is Andy and I'm a dizzy.com-aholic!
Chamberlain H.S. Class of 1960.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
QuoteThe methods used are peculiar then. What, exactly is encouraging about:
"We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable."? I quit smoking 7 months ago, and thinking like that would be the most efficient way to get me to light another cig.
Quote
This is a bit more than admitting you've a problem, it's admitting you've a problem you can't fix yourself. It has to be fixed by someone/something else. This is not an encouragement at all. It's almost setting someone up for failure to stay sober, by starting off with a potential self-fulfilling prophecy.
Yes, one may look at it that way. One may look at it in different ways, too.
- It indicates that one has moved beyond the denial stage and understands that there really is a problem.
Not many people seek help for a problem that they think they don't have.
- It indicates that one understands that he needs assistance in overcoming the problem.
Yes, some people may not need assistance, Some do. For those that do, AA is one viable option. One major component of AA and similar programs is the continued assistance aspect. Unlike some programs which are little more that detox centers, AA offers continued support and encouragement. Yes, other programs besides AA offer continued support, too.
- It indicates that one is voluntarily submitting himself for assistance.
This is good. One of the problems with court-ordered treatment is that the person is not there voluntarily. Although that unwillingness may change over time, it's not conducive to success regardless of the methodology.
Meh, AA has helped many people, Personally, I wouldn't out-of-hand discard any program that can help with these types of things. And yes, there are many who have not been successful with the AA program. And yes, there are other programs as successful and some more so.
Bottom line is that there are none that are always successful. If you are serious about eliminating a problem of this sort from your life, then you do what you need to do. AA is only one viable option.
Now, as far as the religious aspect, Meh, one can take it as is, one can modify it according to needs, one can ignore it altogether. What I don't like about this whole AA and Religion talk is somebody telling me that it's all bunk and a bad thing because of the tie-in to God. BS to that.
You don't believe in God? Fine. Find a program that fits YOUR needs. Don't tell me what MY needs should or shouldn't be.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
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