davjohns 1 #1 May 10, 2012 Just a thought. Pres. Clinton was notorious for using polls to decide what he thought on a subject. It seems Pres. Obama is doing something similar. While my personal preference is to know what a person's true convictions are, I can also make the argument that this kind of leadership gets closer to a true democracy...er...if polls can be trusted.... So...the President waffles on a subject (say it isn't something pressing like whether we should go to the storm shelters) until the polls tell him what his stance should be. Is this a bad thing? Just an interesting point of discussion that sprang to my mind after the announcement on same-sex marriage yesterday.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #2 May 10, 2012 President Clinton did a VERY good job of that. While Reagan was "The Great Communicator" Clinton was the "King of the Trial Balloon." Note: this was after his first two years. Many people forget that his first two years as president were probably the worst two years a president has had since Nixon's final two in office. An idea would be put out, polled, and either acted on or not as a result. Where Clinton did it right was that his admin would come up with ideas and float them. This actually took some work and some thought and some leadership to actually float the ideas out there. Clinton's trial balloons were proactive. Compare to this president, who has been remarkably reactive with a lot of things. (When he's been proactive, I think he's been wrong). Note how the President has acted on the issue of gays. He's saying he supports gay marriage, but is not proposing anything to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act or to statutorily grant rights to LGBT. These are things he can do (and could have done three years ago). Instead, he decided to punt and let the courts deal with it, and not do his job in defending the US in cases challenging it. This is, to me, outrageous. His JOB (by and through Holder) is to defend the US. Or work to get Don't Ask, Don't Tell and DOMA repealed. As the President said, "“And you know it’s going to be decided in the courts, probably–in the next few terms.” I'm fed up with politicians leaving it to the courts to decide these things that they should be doing. Not only because there are people who are living lives just waiting until the courts sort it out but also because it's a demonstration that the courts actually are NEEDED as a line of defense for the People from the capriciousness of the government. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,147 #3 May 10, 2012 Rather like an Etch-a Sketch candidate?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #4 May 10, 2012 Quote Rather like an Etch-a Sketch candidate? with the public turning the dials? I suppose that'd better than an Etch-a-Sketch that ignores the dials. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #5 May 10, 2012 QuoteI can also make the argument that this kind of leadership gets closer to a true democracy... And that's a good thing?You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #6 May 11, 2012 QuoteQuoteI can also make the argument that this kind of leadership gets closer to a true democracy... And that's a good thing? it could be, but I don't think I'd go so far with Clinton. He'd put out the trial balloons when he wanted to do something he thought might be poorly received. If they didn't notice or complain, forward march. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davjohns 1 #7 May 11, 2012 QuoteQuoteI can also make the argument that this kind of leadership gets closer to a true democracy... And that's a good thing? I think that's a good question. While public opinion and majority rule can be a good thing, you sometimes need a leader who will do what's right / in the best interest of the many...those aren't always the same thing. Moral courage is important.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #8 May 11, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteI can also make the argument that this kind of leadership gets closer to a true democracy... And that's a good thing? I think that's a good question. While public opinion and majority rule can be a good thing, you sometimes need a leader who will do what's right / in the best interest of the many...those aren't always the same thing. Moral courage is important. I agree with you here I would add that what is good for the country will more often than not, be of benefit for most. Even if the people can not see it"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,114 #9 May 11, 2012 >I would add that what is good for the country will more often than not, >be of benefit for most. Even if the people can not see it Yep. Gay marriage is a good example. By extending more rights to all US citizens it will make us stronger as a people - even if some cannot see it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #10 May 11, 2012 Quote>I would add that what is good for the country will more often than not, >be of benefit for most. Even if the people can not see it Yep. Gay marriage is a good example. By extending more rights to all US citizens it will make us stronger as a people - even if some cannot see it. Well, gay marriage is not a right. It you say it is, then marriage has to be a right. Last I looked, it was an institution that was defined by society as something that was acceptable As I stated before, I am fine with the states making the choice. You of course would not be. At this time the 32 states that have voted have not accepted same sex marriage. Therefore, the only thing those like you will ever be happy with is a federal mandate. And of course the only states that do have same sex marriage have come to that point via judical activism (is, marriage is not a right, like hc, therefor not a constituional issue IMO) At this point you like to bring up slavery Well, I see being free is a right. How about you Forcing same sex marriage on the people weakens us IMO If you claim same sex marriage as a right, where do you stop? If people claim adult child sex as a right, do you then have to recognize that too> In the end, you are correct in stating that many can not see. I for one can. Can you?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #11 May 11, 2012 Quote Well, gay marriage is not a right. It you say it is, then marriage has to be a right. Last I looked, it was an institution that was defined by society as something that was acceptable The Supreme Court was pretty clear in the Loving decision that it is in fact a basic right. Quote Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival.... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discrimination. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State. Got a reply to that? Quote Forcing same sex marriage on the people weakens us IMO Yet when pressed to demonstrate how, in the face on celebrity one day long marriages, you cannot. Just as Rome didn't burn when people started getting married in California. Quote If you claim same sex marriage as a right, where do you stop? If people claim adult child sex as a right, do you then have to recognize that too> Are we going to hear about monkey sex next? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #12 May 11, 2012 QuoteQuote Well, gay marriage is not a right. It you say it is, then marriage has to be a right. Last I looked, it was an institution that was defined by society as something that was acceptable The Supreme Court was pretty clear in the Loving decision that it is in fact a basic right. Quote Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival.... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discrimination. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State. Got a reply to that? Quote Forcing same sex marriage on the people weakens us IMO Yet when pressed to demonstrate how, in the face on celebrity one day long marriages, you cannot. Just as Rome didn't burn when people started getting married in California. Quote If you claim same sex marriage as a right, where do you stop? If people claim adult child sex as a right, do you then have to recognize that too> Are we going to hear about monkey sex next? Yes I do This does not compare to race issues (we are not talking about marriage in a race context) and you did not answer my question Who decides what is a right and what is not? Some argure HC is a right Marrige is not a right IMO Now, fair treatment is a debate than can be had but not a right WE, as humans, do not decide what is a right or not. We are born with rights. Among those is being free, (which rids us of the slavery comparison here) But, where do rights end if we, as a people, keep redifining them to support our own biass and beliefs? Me? It think ther are definded at birth Again, I am not against same sex couples being recognized as couples under the law. But that is not marriage Marriage is between a man and a women"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,587 #13 May 11, 2012 Why is freedom a right? Why is fair treatment not a right? If it's your belief, that's fine -- just that assertions ought to be identified. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #14 May 11, 2012 QuoteAgain, I am not against same sex couples being recognized as couples under the law. But that is not marriage Marriage is between a man and a women seems pointless - in a nation of individuals (supposedly), why would 'the law' have any business recognizing (or ignoring) any kind of personal associations at all. call it whatever you like ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #15 May 11, 2012 Quote This does not compare to race issues (we are not talking about marriage in a race context) and you did not answer my question Who decides what is a right and what is not? How much more clear could I have been? The Supreme Court decides, and they did. "Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man,"" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #16 May 11, 2012 QuoteWhy is freedom a right? Why is fair treatment not a right? If it's your belief, that's fine -- just that assertions ought to be identified. Wendy P. Rights are god given or defined by nature if you will Some beleive driving is a right. I dont Again, I do not beileve marriage is a right for anybody It is and institution that society has established and acepted And yes, those norms can change But those changs should come from the people Not courts"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #17 May 11, 2012 Quote Rights are god given or defined by nature if you will no, we're not restricted as such. The Bill of Rights included "nature" as well as desired rights and protections. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marinus 0 #18 May 11, 2012 QuoteMarriage is between a man and a women Marriage is whatever society decides it is. Same-sex marriage is about the most boring variation on the concept of marriage after the Monogamic heterosexual marriage and Polygyny. Especially in America I might add. Among American natives same-sex marriage was common. Time to adapt to local customs I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #19 May 11, 2012 QuoteQuote This does not compare to race issues (we are not talking about marriage in a race context) and you did not answer my question Who decides what is a right and what is not? How much more clear could I have been? The Supreme Court decides, and they did. "Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man,"" No, you read down through your quote (unles you put two quotes together) and the post you provide is n the context of races marrying. And now that you put "civil" right Is freedom of speech a civil right? or a right?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #20 May 11, 2012 QuoteQuoteMarriage is between a man and a women Marriage is whatever society decides it is. Same-sex marriage is about the most boring variation on the concept of marriage after the Monogamic heterosexual marriage and Polygyny. Especially in America I might add. Among American natives same-sex marriage was common. Time to adapt to local customs I think. As I just posted and I agree Marriage is what a society dicides it is At this time 32 states have voted that marriage is between a man and a women Sounds like society has decided"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #21 May 11, 2012 Quote At this time 32 states have voted that marriage is between a man and a women Sounds like society has decided But earlier you write that rights are god given or nature given. So how can the tyranny the mob determine what rights are? And as for civil rights versus rights, I don't recognize a difference. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #22 May 11, 2012 QuoteQuote At this time 32 states have voted that marriage is between a man and a women Sounds like society has decided But earlier you write that rights are god given or nature given. So how can the tyranny the mob determine what rights are? And as for civil rights versus rights, I don't recognize a difference. No change I do not see marriage (in any fashion) as a right. The states are determinng what the deffinition of marriage is And there is a difference"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #23 May 11, 2012 Quote I do not see marriage (in any fashion) as a right. *You* don't. But any American who respects the Constitution would. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #24 May 11, 2012 QuoteQuote I do not see marriage (in any fashion) as a right. *You* don't. But any American who respects the Constitution would. Really Where is marriage listed in the Constitution?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #25 May 11, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote I do not see marriage (in any fashion) as a right. *You* don't. But any American who respects the Constitution would. Really Where is marriage listed in the Constitution? this is fucking grade school civics, where we learn about the Supreme Court. You keep digging a deeper hole of nonsense. China beckons! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
