Voter ID's We Need It

[rushmc 23]

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Miami Herald: Thousands of Foreigners May be Illegally Voting in Florida
Tuesday, 08 May 2012 10:50 PM


Thousands of foreign citizens might be registered to vote in Florida – a crucial presidential swing state -- and could have unlawfully cast ballots in previous elections, the Miami Herald reported Tuesday night.

If true, the finding would be a remarkable validation of conservative fears that undocumented aliens and resident non-citizens could be swaying elections in large, battleground states like Florida and New York.

The potential problem is largest in South Florida, especially in Florida’s largest county, Miami-Dade, where the elections supervisor is examining 2,000 potentially unlawful voters, Miami-based WFOR-CBS 4 News first reported Tuesday.

Neighboring Broward County is examining 260 suspected foreign voters. One suspected noncitizen voter has been registered for about 40 years, CBS 4 found.

Over the past year, the Florida Division of Elections has begun identifying potential foreigners on the rolls in coordination with the Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles, Division of Elections spokesman Chris Cate told The Miami Herald.

He said the state has forwarded the names to county elections supervisors, who are in charge of the rolls.

“There will be more names,” Cate said.

There are 1.2 million registered voters in Miami-Dade. Two thousand voters would be more than enough to swing a close election in a state like Florida, where the 2000 presidential election was decided in favor of George W. Bush by 537 votes.

“If we find out after the fact that you are actually a noncitizen, and you are registered to vote, then we would report you to the State Attorney’s Office,” said Christina White, Miami-Dade’s deputy supervisor of elections, according to CBS 4.

“If you are not [a citizen] and you check the box on the registration form that says that you are [a citizen],” White said, “we are required to register you to vote, because you are taking that under oath.”

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[sfzombie 3]

that's the most insane thing i have heard today, but it's early. we don't need voter id's, only an idiot would say that(not meaning offense rush), we need to reform the registration process. anyone here tried to change their address yet this year? i had to drop my cdl and damn near bring a folder to hold the documentation to prove i was who i said i was(and my license wasn't even expired). if they can't fit that into the registration process and verify citizenship, fuck 'em.

http://kitswv.com

[rushmc 23]

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that's the most insane thing i have heard today, but it's early. we don't need voter id's, only an idiot would say that(not meaning offense rush), we need to reform the registration process. anyone here tried to change their address yet this year? i had to drop my cdl and damn near bring a folder to hold the documentation to prove i was who i said i was(and my license wasn't even expired). if they can't fit that into the registration process and verify citizenship, fuck 'em.

The process you explain is no different than an ID card IMO

BTW

You need and ID to drivers licence
You need and ID to use your medical insurance
You need and ID to carry a gun
You need and ID to get on a plane

What is wrong with an ID to prove your voter status?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[davjohns 1]

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that's the most insane thing i have heard today, but it's early. we don't need voter id's, only an idiot would say that(not meaning offense rush), we need to reform the registration process. anyone here tried to change their address yet this year? i had to drop my cdl and damn near bring a folder to hold the documentation to prove i was who i said i was(and my license wasn't even expired). if they can't fit that into the registration process and verify citizenship, fuck 'em.

Please understand the disconnect between the two events. Even if the registration process were perfect, someone can show up to the polling place and claim they are another person. They could give the polling people YOUR name and vote for you. If nobody asks them to prove who they are, it's easy. Every time I vote, they have the list of names in front of me as they look me up. I often put my finger on the page and point to my name. They have no idea if I am really that person. I could easily read another name on the sheet and come back to vote again in a few minutes. It's ridiculous that we have so much verification in other places and none here.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[popsjumper 2]

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that's the most insane thing i have heard today, but it's early. we don't need voter id's, only an idiot would say that(not meaning offense rush),

Count me as an idiot.

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we need to reform the registration process.

All too true. But as the post above says, that won't fix the problem...only the registration one.

How about a registration process that actually verifies citizenship instead of taking the applicant's word?

How about then issuing a pictured, fingerprinted Voter ID card to use at the polls?

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anyone here tried to change their address yet this year? i had to drop my cdl and damn near bring a folder to hold the documentation to prove i was who i said i was(and my license wasn't even expired). if they can't fit that into the registration process and verify citizenship, fuck 'em.

A driver's license doesn't do any more to verify citizenship than a birth certificate does. Both together can do it...hence the need for multiple documentation. But that process is easily circumvented, too.

Call it a Citizenship Card...issued only after citizenship has been fully established.

One way...issue the thing at birth and update it every year. I would also be a cool record of your child's growth through life.

Issue one at the Citizenship Ceremony.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[GeorgiaDon 379]

I think you guys are missing the boat a bit on this one. The problem here is that the DMV is neither USCIS or a voter registration office, so it's absurdly easy for a non-citizen to register to vote that way. In my experience, you do not have to produce any documentation to prove citizenship, you just have to say you are a citizen and that's good enough. Once you have a drivers license that indicates you are a citizen, how is showing that ID at the polling station supposed to alert the staff there that anything is amiss?

Another issue (again from my own experience) is that DMV does not track changes to your citizenship status in a timely manner. When I naturalized as a US citizen, I contacted DMV to have my status changed in their records, and I was told I'd have to wait until it was time to renew my license to make that change. So for about a year, I was a citizen but my drivers license still indicated that I was a permanent resident. It seems odd that I can get a new copy of my license if I change address, but not if I become a citizen.

One last personal experience, right after the naturalization ceremony (after which I was finally a US citizen), I went straight to the voter registration office to fill out the paperwork to get on the voter rolls. Since I had just come from the oath ceremony I had my naturalization certificate with me. When I turned in my paperwork, the people at the voter registration office did not ask to see any documentation. They did not ask why a 50-year-old was just now registering to vote. When I insisted on showing them my naturalization certificate, they seemed distinctly bored, even annoyed. It was totally obvious that I could have walked into that office as a non-citizen and registered with very little risk of being caught. Perhaps it would be different if I wasn't white, and if I spoke with a more obvious foreign accent.

All this is not to say that having to prove you are who you say you are at the polls is or is not a good idea. The point is just that having to show ID to prove citizenship is pretty much useless when it's so easy to get ID that fraudulently shows you are a citizen.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Airgump 1]

we also need to get some big slabs of concrete and install them in the graveyards in Chicago so the dead vote doesn't make an appearance this election cycle.

[rushmc 23]

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we also need to get some big slabs of concrete and install them in the graveyards in Chicago so the dead vote doesn't make an appearance this election cycle.

Ya

the zombies vote too much

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kelpdiver 2]

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Please understand the disconnect between the two events. Even if the registration process were perfect, someone can show up to the polling place and claim they are another person. They could give the polling people YOUR name and vote for you. If nobody asks them to prove who they are, it's easy. Every time I vote, they have the list of names in front of me as they look me up. I often put my finger on the page and point to my name. They have no idea if I am really that person. I could easily read another name on the sheet and come back to vote again in a few minutes. It's ridiculous that we have so much verification in other places and none here.

But unless you manage to only pick out names of non voters, they're going to notice when people come and insist they have voted yet, despite that line being drawn over the name. Or if the state gets hundreds/thousands of absentee ballots for people marked as having gone to the polls. Unlike tampering with Diebold voting machines, this is a type of fraud that would be easily observed.

Florida has a history of (over) zealously purging the voter rolls of those who shouldn't. We'll have to see what actually pans out of this before we start declaring the need to solve the problem. If they do find non voters, I hope they actually prosecute for a change, or deport even.

[jclalor 12]

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***Miami Herald: Thousands of Foreigners May be Illegally Voting in Florida
Tuesday, 08 May 2012 10:50 PM


Thousands of foreign citizens might be registered to vote in Florida – a crucial presidential swing state -- and could have unlawfully cast ballots in previous elections, the Miami Herald reported Tuesday night.

If true, the finding would be a remarkable validation of conservative fears that undocumented aliens and resident non-citizens could be swaying elections in large, battleground states like Florida and New York.

The potential problem is largest in South Florida, especially in Florida’s largest county, Miami-Dade, where the elections supervisor is examining 2,000 potentially unlawful voters, Miami-based WFOR-CBS 4 News first reported Tuesday.

Neighboring Broward County is examining 260 suspected foreign voters. One suspected noncitizen voter has been registered for about 40 years, CBS 4 found.

Over the past year, the Florida Division of Elections has begun identifying potential foreigners on the rolls in coordination with the Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles, Division of Elections spokesman Chris Cate told The Miami Herald.

He said the state has forwarded the names to county elections supervisors, who are in charge of the rolls.

“There will be more names,” Cate said.

There are 1.2 million registered voters in Miami-Dade. Two thousand voters would be more than enough to swing a close election in a state like Florida, where the 2000 presidential election was decided in favor of George W. Bush by 537 votes.


“If we find out after the fact that you are actually a noncitizen, and you are registered to vote, then we would report you to the State Attorney’s Office,” said Christina White, Miami-Dade’s deputy supervisor of elections, according to CBS 4.

“If you are not [a citizen] and you check the box on the registration form that says that you are [a citizen],” White said, “we are required to register you to vote, because you are taking that under oath.”

If we only had some lemons...

• Quote

[davjohns 1]

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Please understand the disconnect between the two events. Even if the registration process were perfect, someone can show up to the polling place and claim they are another person. They could give the polling people YOUR name and vote for you. If nobody asks them to prove who they are, it's easy. Every time I vote, they have the list of names in front of me as they look me up. I often put my finger on the page and point to my name. They have no idea if I am really that person. I could easily read another name on the sheet and come back to vote again in a few minutes. It's ridiculous that we have so much verification in other places and none here.

But unless you manage to only pick out names of non voters, they're going to notice when people come and insist they have voted yet, despite that line being drawn over the name. Or if the state gets hundreds/thousands of absentee ballots for people marked as having gone to the polls. Unlike tampering with Diebold voting machines, this is a type of fraud that would be easily observed.

Florida has a history of (over) zealously purging the voter rolls of those who shouldn't. We'll have to see what actually pans out of this before we start declaring the need to solve the problem. If they do find non voters, I hope they actually prosecute for a change, or deport even.

That's the problem. If I go vote for YOU before you get there...then what? Like I said, I tell them a name and they turn to a page of people with my name (David Johnson...very common). I point to the one that is me because I can see my address beside it. I could easily come back and point to another. I can see which ones are lined through and which aren't. Hell, I could even show them my military ID (no address on that one) and prove that I really am a guy with that name. And what does the poll worker do when the real (place your name here) shows up and someone has already voted for you? Deny you the right to vote? Give you a ballot and just accept that some voter fraud is going on? Pretend it was a mistake and they lined through the wrong name?

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[kelpdiver 2]

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That's the problem. If I go vote for YOU before you get there...then what?

No, it's not a problem. It's not happening. And as I explained, we'd know if it were.

There are scores of potential ways to exploit the voting system we have and we could spend inordinate amounts of money trying to stop these phantoms. But personally I can think of better ways to spend the money.

And if we do want to take this on, let's think bigger picture and solve it for the rest of the century. Let's use the same method we use to file taxes electronically, let people register and vote from home, and more importantly give people the ability to look up their vote after the election. And let's solve this problem with peer reviewable opensource, not some closed Diebold system with holes and suspect political ties.

[Southern_Man 0]

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Another issue (again from my own experience) is that DMV does not track changes to your citizenship status in a timely manner. When I naturalized as a US citizen, I contacted DMV to have my status changed in their records, and I was told I'd have to wait until it was time to renew my license to make that change. Don

It depends on the state. My state verifies that you are a legal resident (through requiring proper documentation) but does not indicate anywhere on your licesne whether you are a citizen or not.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[GeorgiaDon 379]

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Another issue (again from my own experience) is that DMV does not track changes to your citizenship status in a timely manner. When I naturalized as a US citizen, I contacted DMV to have my status changed in their records, and I was told I'd have to wait until it was time to renew my license to make that change. Don

It depends on the state. My state verifies that you are a legal resident (through requiring proper documentation) but does not indicate anywhere on your licesne whether you are a citizen or not.

In this case, the issue is do they have a mechanism for making a timely change to their records if you go from being a legal resident (green card holder) to citizen. Georgia does not, or at least did not four years ago when I tried to do it. That means there will be a period of time when you are a citizen, entitled to vote, but DMV records will still show you are not.

In my daughter's case, she received a VERY threatening letter, basically stating that she had voted illegally and was going to be arrested, jailed, then deported. Only at the end of the letter was there a statement that, if she believed she was legally entitled to vote, she had three days to go to the voting registration office and confirm her status with them. The letter originated with the Georgia Secretary of State Division of Elections, but it was based on a list from the local Republican Party office, who had compared voter lists with DNC records to identify discrepancies. Interestingly, they did this only for some groups, such as college students and younger voters, but not for other groups such as retirees.

Georgia doesn't put your citizenship status on the license, but they maintain records that can be searched by interested parties. When you get the license, they ask if you are a citizen. If you say yes, they didn't ask for proof when I first moved to Georgia. However if you truthfully (in my case, at the time) say you are not, then they were very stringent on what they would and would not accept as evidence of legal status. I had applied for, but not yet received, my green card, but I had a work authorization certificate so I was OK. My wife also had applied for a green card at the same time, but not work authorization, so all she had was the letter from INS acknowledging receipt of her application. This wasn't good enough for the Georgia DMV, and she was denied a drivers license. Eventually she had to get work authorization, which cost an additional couple of hundred dollars, just so she could get a Georgia drivers license, despite having a valid license from Arizona. These sorts of hassles are, I think, what tempt some people to lie and claim to be a citizen; they aren't necessarily doing it with an intent of voting.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[popsjumper 2]

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I think you guys are missing the boat a bit on this one.

Well, no, Don. It's what we've been talking about all along since somebody said, "we need to reform the registration process."

Regardless of what ID you currently have to show, or not show, or where or how you got the ID in the first place, no checks are being done to prevent the non-citizens from registering to vote.

Some effort is made after the fact as others have said but that's not good enough. Rather crazy to let a problem happen and then spend effort to fix it...all the while doing nothing to prevent it happening in the future.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[funjumper101 15]

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Miami Herald: Thousands of Foreigners May be Illegally Voting in Florida
Tuesday, 08 May 2012 10:50 PM


Thousands of foreign citizens might be registered to vote in Florida – a crucial presidential swing state -- and could have unlawfully cast ballots in previous elections, the Miami Herald reported Tuesday night.

If true, the finding would be a remarkable validation of conservative fears that undocumented aliens and resident non-citizens could be swaying elections in large, battleground states like Florida and New York.

The potential problem is largest in South Florida, especially in Florida’s largest county, Miami-Dade, where the elections supervisor is examining 2,000 potentially unlawful voters, Miami-based WFOR-CBS 4 News first reported Tuesday.

Neighboring Broward County is examining 260 suspected foreign voters. One suspected noncitizen voter has been registered for about 40 years, CBS 4 found.

Over the past year, the Florida Division of Elections has begun identifying potential foreigners on the rolls in coordination with the Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles, Division of Elections spokesman Chris Cate told The Miami Herald.

He said the state has forwarded the names to county elections supervisors, who are in charge of the rolls.

“There will be more names,” Cate said.

There are 1.2 million registered voters in Miami-Dade. Two thousand voters would be more than enough to swing a close election in a state like Florida, where the 2000 presidential election was decided in favor of George W. Bush by 537 votes.

“If we find out after the fact that you are actually a noncitizen, and you are registered to vote, then we would report you to the State Attorney’s Office,” said Christina White, Miami-Dade’s deputy supervisor of elections, according to CBS 4.

“If you are not [a citizen] and you check the box on the registration form that says that you are [a citizen],” White said, “we are required to register you to vote, because you are taking that under oath.”

Typical cut/paste of RWC bullshit that gets dumb fucks all riled up via speculative bullshit.

For the reading comprehension challenged, like Marc appears to be, the VERY FIRST LINE in this "news" story reads

"Thousands of foreign citizens might be registered to vote in Florida – a crucial presidential swing state -- and could have unlawfully cast ballots in previous elections, the Miami Herald reported Tuesday night."

The usual false "news" disclaimers applied are the words "might" and "could have", thus making the "news" story a complete work of fictional pot stirring. Unfortunately, the dumb fucks among us can't tell the difference between bullshit and facts.

Fasle bullshit passing as news is a hallmark of RWC shit stirring that works really well to wind up the dumb fucks into a lather over nothing.

The dumb fucks just parrot the bullshit because they are incapable of critical thinking.

[Andy9o8 2]

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When I naturalized

I've always wondered about the origin of that term. Seems weird. So if you and your wife had sex, but weren't citizens, would that be an unnatural act? Permanently Victorian states like Georgia have stiff laws about unnatural acts. Why aren't you in jail?

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Perhaps it would be different if I wasn't white, and if I spoke with a more obvious foreign accent.

I can barely understand you as it is.

[GeorgiaDon 379]

Hey Andy,

I didn't mean that no checks should be applied. All I meant was that showing a photo ID is useless, if it is absurdly easy for a non-citizen to get such an ID showing that they are a citizen. Here in Georgia, my experience has been that at the DMV if I say I'm a citizen, that's what goes in their records. Even when I registered to vote, I had to insist they look at my naturalization certificate, they were completely happy to just take my word for it that I was (am) a citizen.

Just this afternoon, I heard on NPR that starting in July you will no longer be able to renew your driver's licence by mail, or online, here in Georgia. When it's time to renew your licence, you will have to take the day off work to go stand in line at the DMV office, and present a litany of documents to prove in person that you are who you say you are, and that you are a citizen/legal immigrant. This is the price of real security against illegals getting a driver's license or voting: every "real American" will have to go stand in line at the DMV to prove themselves. I wonder how many will be "understanding" when it costs them time and money? Most Americans I know want illegal immigration stopped, but they don't want to be personally inconvenienced in any way. Some don't mind when other people are inconvenienced, though, such as by having their property confiscated to build a border fence.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[GeorgiaDon 379]

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Why aren't you in jail?

You're not the first to wonder that.

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I can barely understand you as it is.

Mission accomplished!

Thanks, Andy, for all the chuckles and the occasional serious post. Much appreciated.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Southern_Man 0]

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]In this case, the issue is do they have a mechanism for making a timely change to their records if you go from being a legal resident (green card holder) to citizen. Georgia does not, or at least did not four years ago when I tried to do it. That means there will be a period of time when you are a citizen, entitled to vote, but DMV records will still show you are not.

Don

Honestly I believe the DMV here only checks to see if you are eligible to have a driver's license. I do not think they verify or record your citizenship status but I am not 100% sure.

Anyway, in my state there is absolutely no tie between the DMV and voting. I do not believe the registrar cross checks any DMV records. As far as I can tell there is no verification process for citizenship for registration. They do ask you to affirm that you are a citizen on the application and you do have to send in some confirmation of identity but this can be a utility bill (so, not government issues, no picture, etc.). Here is the VA application for voter registration: http://www.sbe.virginia.gov/cms/documents/VoterRegistration/sbe_voter_app_DOJ-Printed.pdf

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[kelpdiver 2]

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Just this afternoon, I heard on NPR that starting in July you will no longer be able to renew your driver's licence by mail, or online, here in Georgia. When it's time to renew your licence, you will have to take the day off work to go stand in line at the DMV office, and present a litany of documents to prove in person that you are who you say you are, and that you are a citizen/legal immigrant. This is the price of real security against illegals getting a driver's license or voting: every "real American" will have to go stand in line at the DMV to prove themselves.

This sounds like the implementation of the REAL ID mandate passed by the Feds in the aftermath of 9/11 that has been repeatedly delayed. It was supposed to hit California in 2009 but was pushed out. I think the motivation was more about terrorism than illegals, though they dovetail well.

When you think about it, however, one typically gets their license in high school and baring a high rate of tickets or accidents, can renew by mail for most of their lives without any additional checks being done. That driver's license is the master document for most checks done later.

It could be a real pain for me - I used my family address for voting, DMV, taxes, but most of the supporting documents they talk about are for my apartment lease.