Fracking for oil

[Airgump 1]

i disagree! my little brother bought and ran several disposal wells over the last several years and just recently was bought out by chesapeake. before he got into the business, he and his father-in-law were damn near blowed to hell when lightning struck an oil tank on the well location. pretty much everything burned to the ground, but the well was shut in and nothing down hole was lost to the surface. none of his wells ever lost any fluid and were all inspected by the licensing agencies. all dykes and sumps were kept to spec and when one was hit by a tornado, nothing was lost that couldn't be sucked up with a vacuum truck and pumped into the replacement tank.

weird/funny thing was the same reporter that chased my ambulance to hospital was the first one to show up at the location my brother was almost killed at. when the dip-shit reporter asked them if they worked at the site, his father-in-law looked around and said "not anymore!"

conoco/phillips and exxon have become anal about safety since the time i first broke out into the oil patch. c/p's fields down in TX have gone well past 5 years without an accident of any type in the whole field.

in the old days ('70's and 80's), dope and booze was common place. and with that came death and destruction. most of the knowledge boxes on the rig contained an eight-ball of coke, a mirror and razor blade. the drilling companies back then had shit for equipment and if the work didn't kill you, the equipment gotcha.

since then safety is no joke in the patch! anyone at anytime can shut down about anything in the name of safety. the hands that work on the rigs are hair follicle tested for drugs and alcohol. safety meetings are held before every tour and before any major task on the rig like nippling up or laying down drill pipe. crews get safety pay for each hole they drill without a lost time accident.

guess all of you professors respond with cartoons instead of intelligent conversation. all of you tree huggers need to buy obummer's electric cars, move into a cave, and leave the rest of us alone. your reply to my post reminds me a lot of bill von.

[masterblaster72 0]

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guess all of you professors respond with cartoons instead of intelligent conversation. all of you tree huggers need to buy obummer's electric cars, move into a cave, and leave the rest of us alone. your reply to my post reminds me a lot of bill von.

I can appreciate your experienced viewpoint on the subject -- very interesting stories. You're the third poster I've seen in SC who works in the energy business that has repeated a common theme of safety first. I'm glad we can agree on that.

However, one thing the "industry-first" folks do often is sink the discourse with words like "environ-nuts" and "tree huggers." I think the discussion is about something VERY fundamental like clean air and clean water. It is not about shutting down energy companies because I'm on the take from Al Gore; it's about how can we ensure clean air and clean water if fracking is to continue, and how to ensure accountability when air and water supplies are destroyed. To me, clean water and air are far more important than a few jobs and energy companies' will to profit -- full stop. If that makes me a tree-hugger in the eyes of people who work in the energy industry, then I'm cool with that.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[kallend 2,133]

You wrote:
"it was what this private owner had pumped down the "salt water only" well that damn near killed the lot of us. it was found that saltwater from some local H2S wells was pumped down it, as well as chemicals from an old air force base in burns flat, ok that the army corps of engineers disposed of illegally."

And in your very next post you're telling us that the owners have got religion, are very safety conscious, and don't need regulation.

Sorry if I find that hard to believe.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[popsjumper 2]

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Since you missed it the first time, GO AND READ IT AND EDUCATE YOURSELF. Even in "still" air the difference in mass is way too small to give any significant partition in the Earth's gravitational field.

If you want the short answer, ENTROPY beats gravity in gas mixtures unless the density differences are large, which they are not for oxygen, nitrogen, CO2, H2S, argon...

Now we are getting somewhere..."still" air vs no wind.
You DO understand the difference. Good. Try not to confuse the two, 'mkay?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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I think the discussion is about something VERY fundamental like clean air and clean water. It is not about shutting down energy companies because I'm on the take from Al Gore; it's about how can we ensure clean air and clean water if fracking is to continue, and how to ensure accountability when air and water supplies are destroyed.

Bingo.

...and it's not about how molecules behave in "still" air.

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To me, clean water and air are far more important than a few jobs and energy companies' will to profit -- full stop. If that makes me a tree-hugger in the eyes of people who work in the energy industry, then I'm cool with that.

Pick a tree. We can hug it together.


This is interesting:
"The EPA is conducting a study, set to be released for peer review at the end of 2012, of hydraulic fracturing's impact on drinking water and ground water resources."

http://www.epa.gov/hfstudy/

Here's another interesting document:
http://www.epa.gov/hfstudy/HF_Study__Plan_110211_FINAL_508.pdf


Table 4 on doc page 29 lists some chenicals used in fracking and the reasons for it and Table E1 in the Appendix E lists similar.

In the text, 6.2.3.1 RESEARCH ACTIVITIES – HYDRAULIC FRACTURING FLUID COMPOSITION", take note that the EPA says, "publicly known chemicals and that they are not really sure about which ones are actually being used. Part of the testing is discovering just what IS being used.

"The list of chemicals from the nine hydraulic fracturing service companies will be compared to the list of publicly known hydraulic fracturing chemical additives to determine the accuracy and completeness of the list of chemicals given in Table E1 in Appendix E. The combined list will provide EPA with an inventory of chemicals used in hydraulic fracturing operations."


It's unbelievable how long Table E1 is. Bejeezuz.

"APPENDIX E: CHEMICALS IDENTIFIED IN HYDRAULIC FRACTURING FLUID AND FLOWBACK/PRODUCED WATER
NOTE: In all tables in Appendix E, the chemicals are primarily listed as identified in the cited reference. Due to varying naming conventions or errors in reporting, there may be some duplicates or inaccurate names. Some effort has been made to eliminate errors, but further evaluation will be conducted as part of the study analysis."

Does anyone else see a problem with this?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Airgump 1]

http://www.abcbirds.org/newsandreports/releases/110907.html

obama talks about "fair" share.

the EPA administrator for the oil producing southern part of the US just resigned for his crucify approach to the energy industry. crucifying a company because your are uncle sugar and can do so with impunity is why discussions get heated up really quick.

i've been in the energy industry and dabble in the telecom world. i have seen both of these industries suffer from government over-reach as well as out and out ignorance.

in the telcom world Light Squared is a good example as well as the deregulation of the Bell companies. that deregulation was supposed to produce multiple choices of dial tone to serve residents, these days the only companies competing to sell dial tone is the local bell and the CATV company. i was designing fiber networks that were the first CLEC (competitive local exchange carrier) to come up against the bells. under an FCC ruling the legacy bell company had to lease us the CLEC their copper wires in their plant to serve our customers at a greatly reduced price that there was no hope to profit from.

is it fair for the legacy company to have to provide a vehicle to ones competition with no profit?

The same can be said for the FCC these days: they have just released a rule much like the deregulation mentioned above. upon the new rule change, sprint suspended service in western OK except along I-40 and Altus, OK to opt to ride on other carries towers in a roam fashion. that cuts my air card usuability from 5GB to 2.5GB. So sprint cuts and runs and leaves me their customer with less service and a bigger bill.

i was pumping gas wells when the big push over bird kills started. at that time most salt water tanks were half tanks with no top or roof on them. the push entailed getting bird netting stretched over the tanks to keep the birds out. they were a pain in the ass to maintain, but worth it cause we energy workers live here too. today they place fiberglass tanks with tops and inspection hatches. we just don't go around pouring stuff on the ground cause our friends, neighbors, and families live here too. we eat the deer and quail we shoot and the fish we catch from our lakes and streams. it goes against our grain to deface mother earth that gives us so much.

the amount of money that has been blown on the bankrupt green companies (just two of them) could have gone a long way towards cleaning up coal emissions. instead of spending the jack there what does the EPA do, put more regulations and try to drive them out without a viable way to replace the resulting voltage deficit.

when i was an artillery officer in the guard, we were hammered constantly about our plans for this or that. you can't wage war with just one plan in your tool box. from the moment we start out, the first plan is crap because what we thought we were planning for changed or wasn't what we thought it was in the first place. the battlefield and industry are fluid environments. one assault plan doesn't work in all applications, much like the specifications to drill a H2S well versus a run of the mill gas well are very different.

the people i label "environ-nuts" and "tree huggers" are the uninformed that regurgitate talking points without even attempting to read up on the topic. the ones that pass legislation thru fear to limit or outlaw things and then get in their electric car (charged at work by natural gas turbine) and drive home and crank up the air conditioner (house served by coal fired plant) and beat their chest about how green they live and that the rest of the country should be doing it as well.

get the politics out. get some really smart oilmen and women and other folks and let's sit down and figure this out among our selves. let's use the same engineering approach we used getting someone on the moon. if they used our current way of doing things back in good ole days of NASA, we'd never have made it to the moon and killed astronauts on every attempt.

last year i bought a solar generator to take to the DZ. before i bought it i had a honda 2000watt generator ($1000). it would run for 14 hours on a gallon of gas and easily handled a 4000btu AC ($100), refrig ($80.00), microwave ($50), hot plate ($20), and laptop computer ($400). only problem was keeping gasoline around the camp site.

the solar kit consisted of 2(ea) 100watt panels and a 30 amp hour Li Hydride with a charge controller all for around $2,900 dollars. this set up only provides 15 amps of power. no hope in running the AC or microwave off it. to replace the frig i bought a 40qt freezer/frig from engel that only pulls two amps at 12VDC. Cost was $1000 just for it. low amperage.

alternative forms of energy have their place like oil and gas. when the car first came along, it was generations before all of america was weaned from the horse and buggy. the automotive industry wasn't built by the government and it wasn't built overnight. they too had insurmountable obstacles to overcome to have the rides we take for granted today.

[masterblaster72 0]

Good reading -- I'll try to go through it soon as this stuff interests me.

And yes I do see a problem with the approach that the EPA is taking there. It would basically allow the energy companies to dump the "unmatched/unknown to the public" dangerous chemicals in waterways with impunity. That's why the Halliburton loophole needs to be done away with, and quickly.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[Airgump 1]

that was an isolated incident with a private greedy person. he was the last nail in the coffin and the state raped his ass for it too. the fines and penalties he earned for his shoddy operation cost him more than pumping that illegal waste down-hole.

i'm all for any operator getting his hat handed to him for willful misconduct in whatever industry. same accountability should be afforded government or private. if a company or government employee/manager makes the same mistake the punishment should be the same. you send an oil man to jail for "X" if the government man does the same he should share the same fate and the same sentence.

[kallend 2,133]

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Since you missed it the first time, GO AND READ IT AND EDUCATE YOURSELF. Even in "still" air the difference in mass is way too small to give any significant partition in the Earth's gravitational field.

If you want the short answer, ENTROPY beats gravity in gas mixtures unless the density differences are large, which they are not for oxygen, nitrogen, CO2, H2S, argon...

Now we are getting somewhere..."still" air vs no wind.
You DO understand the difference. Good. Try not to confuse the two, 'mkay?

Lame attempt to cover your ignorance of molecular mechanics.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,133]

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that was an isolated incident with a private greedy person. he was the last nail in the coffin and the state raped his ass for it too. the fines and penalties he earned for his shoddy operation cost him more than pumping that illegal waste down-hole.

i'm all for any operator getting his hat handed to him for willful misconduct in whatever industry. same accountability should be afforded government or private. if a company or government employee/manager makes the same mistake the punishment should be the same. you send an oil man to jail for "X" if the government man does the same he should share the same fate and the same sentence.

How can you convict someone and imprison them if he/she hasn't broken any regulations?

Your argument is inconsistent and self-contradictory.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Airgump 1]

willful misconduct = breaking regulations

[kallend 2,133]

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willful misconduct = breaking regulations

You are caught in an oxymoron of your own making and can't escape.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Airgump 1]

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willful misconduct = breaking regulations

You are caught in an oxymoron of your own making and can't escape.

you're one of them ron brothers aren't ya? kallend, in your spare time could ya figure out how to get all of those birds knowed up and quit flying into obummer's new shinny chineese wind turbines. you're killing more birds annually than the oil patch has in centuries. save us a few ducks for the thanksgiving table.

if i don't place a string of casing in a well i'm drilling or cement a placed string correctly according to the drilling prognosis and my permits assigned me, my breaking those regulations is seen as willful misconduct.

even if i dodge bad karma and the well never has a single problem in its life span of production, i'm still just as wrong not performing my activity as it was proposed and permitted. the only means to deviate from the initial proposal is to obtain the appropriate permissions from the agencies that generated the original permit.

[billvon 3,096]

>i'm all for any operator getting his hat handed to him for willful
>misconduct in whatever industry.

Agreed. Oil/gas drilling can be done safely - but it absolutely has to be done so in a carefully regulated environment where there are big penalties for "private greedy people."

[Airgump 1]

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>i'm all for any operator getting his hat handed to him for willful
>misconduct in whatever industry.

Agreed. Oil/gas drilling can be done safely - but it absolutely has to be done so in a carefully regulated environment where there are big penalties for "private greedy people."

so what do we do with the inequity of bird kills between oil and gas versus wind power?

the price for 1 eagle killed by either industry should be the same shouldn't it?

the number of instances (body count) should pertain equally?

[airdvr 210]

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>i'm all for any operator getting his hat handed to him for willful
>misconduct in whatever industry.

Agreed. Oil/gas drilling can be done safely - but it absolutely has to be done so in a carefully regulated environment where there are big penalties for "private greedy people."

Agreed. Using the methodolgy of some here we should never set foot outside of an aircraft unless it's on the ground.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[kallend 2,133]

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>i'm all for any operator getting his hat handed to him for willful
>misconduct in whatever industry.

Agreed. Oil/gas drilling can be done safely - but it absolutely has to be done so in a carefully regulated environment where there are big penalties for "private greedy people."

so what do we do with the inequity of bird kills between oil and gas versus wind power?

the price for 1 eagle killed by either industry should be the same shouldn't it?

the number of instances (body count) should pertain equally?

Exxon Valdez and Deepwater Horizon alone bias the kill towards the oil industry.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Airgump 1]

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>i'm all for any operator getting his hat handed to him for willful
>misconduct in whatever industry.

Agreed. Oil/gas drilling can be done safely - but it absolutely has to be done so in a carefully regulated environment where there are big penalties for "private greedy people."

next in line, let's talk about the residual pollution from the electronics industry and the others that makes the parts that go into the manufacture of wind turbines and solar cells. they, like iron and steel, aren't picked from the tree.

the power needed to create tools of either industry is more than the average person gives a random thought to.

all sources of energy are needed for a productive country. all of the remote reporting and controls now days on oil field locations of producing wells use solar cells and some batteries to run the equipment.

maybe if we approached energy as a team effort things can go off the chart and make everything a much better endeavor.

[kallend 2,133]

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>i'm all for any operator getting his hat handed to him for willful
>misconduct in whatever industry.

Agreed. Oil/gas drilling can be done safely - but it absolutely has to be done so in a carefully regulated environment where there are big penalties for "private greedy people."

Agreed. Using the methodolgy of some here we should never set foot outside of an aircraft unless it's on the ground.

Aircraft ARE heavily regulated. Your argument is stupid.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Airgump 1]

one thing is for sure in this world, right here, right now.........

without pic1 and pic2 there is no pic three for you greenies to jump from but cliffs and gliders

[billvon 3,096]

>so what do we do with the inequity of bird kills between oil and gas
>versus wind power?

Reduce both.

[Airgump 1]

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>so what do we do with the inequity of bird kills between oil and gas
>versus wind power?

Reduce both.

and replace with what?

you obviously chose not to answer about both being equally culpable for the death and mayhem to the wild life.

nor the penalties for each such instance. if fair is fair, time for those poor birdies to be saved from being killed by big bad wind turbines, or at the very least the operators pay up like big bad oil on EACH and EVERY bird carcass like the rest have to.

[billvon 3,096]

>next in line, let's talk about the residual pollution from the electronics
>industry and the others that makes the parts that go into the manufacture
>of wind turbines and solar cells. they, like iron and steel, aren't picked
>from the tree.

Agreed; they need to be reduced as well.

>all sources of energy are needed for a productive country.

Not all. Strontium reactors were a good idea but turned out to be lousy in practice. No one uses them any more (fortunately.) RBMK reactors turned out to not be such a good idea either; they are now being phased out.

I agree that we need many different sources of energy - but all energy sources were not created equal.

[kelpdiver 2]

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>so what do we do with the inequity of bird kills between oil and gas
>versus wind power?

Reduce both.

and replace with what?

In the case of wind, fewer larger turbines kill less than many small ones. For oil, it centers on reducing spills and responding quickly to them. For gas, probably most about emissions. But the indirect deaths from pollution are hardest to measure.

[billvon 3,096]

>and replace with what?

Are you asking "replace bird kills with what?" Nothing. Bird kills from both technologies should be reduced.

Are you asking "replace wind and oil/gas power with what?" Solar, nuclear, hydro, wave, geothermal etc are the obvious answers there.

>you obviously chose not to answer about both being equally culpable for
>the death and mayhem to the wild life.

Hmm. Birds get killed by flying into the blades and poles that make up wind generators. Several times more are killed by flying into power lines, skyscrapers and bridges. Many more orders of magnitude are killed by flying into trees. I guess trees are even more culpable . . .

To me there is a difference between poisoning an animal and putting up (or planting) a hazard that they might fly into. I'd compare it to poisoning a community's water supply and building a road that drunk drivers are killed on. Are they the same? Should the guy who built the road be just as culpable as the factory owner who dumped strontium-90 down a well? After all, in both cases, dead is dead.