Suicide v. Self-Euthanasia

[lawrocket 3]

With yesterday's suicide of Junior Seau, there are a lot of people out there discussing that suicide is wrong, not a solution, etc. But then there is self-euthanasia, which seems to be something that is looked upon differently.

Why is that? Is there a diference between mental illness and physical illness? Is a person who is facing mental deficits (as Seau may have been) and knowing that it will just get worse and worse somehow different from a person who is facing physical pain and knows it will only get worse.

It seems there is a fine line on this. I can argue both sides quite easily but I'm interested in what others have to say about it. Why is self-euthanasia view as different than suicide when they are both the same thing, really.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Remster 30]

If only the world was black and white, huh?

Having had (and having currently) aging relatives who are facing spending the last year(s) of their lives as someone they are not, it makes you question this whole realm of social issues...

This being said, I don't know what Seau's situation was. Mental illness is one thing, a degenerative brain issue is another... But it's also something that affects more than the person itself... Things like that need to be discussed with your close ones.

Remster

[Gravitymaster 0]

I see little difference between the two. The decision to end ones life is as personal a decision as it gets. I think the reason it is viewed differently is that a physical illness such as terminal cancer is viewed as incurable whereas a mental illnes does have some hope of being cured. OTOH, suppose someone has lived a lifetime with incurable depression, schizophrenia, or some type of psychosis? Isn't that the same as an incurable physical ailment?

[Southern_Man 0]

I believe that if you say a condition is not terminal than most people would be against either self-euthanasia or suicide. That can be a very fine line with a lot of semantics. I'm not even sure there is any difference between self-euthanasia and suicide.

Of course mental illness often is fatal. I have a lot of sympathy for those who struggle with mental illness and the torture that it often inflicts on people. I find it very difficult to judge anybody for their actions in response.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[chuck_skywalker 0]

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I believe that if you say a condition is not terminal than most people would be against either self-euthanasia or suicide. That can be a very fine line with a lot of semantics. I'm not even sure there is any difference between self-euthanasia and suicide.

Of course mental illness often is fatal. I have a lot of sympathy for those who struggle with mental illness and the torture that it often inflicts on people. I find it very difficult to judge anybody for their actions in response.

I certainly agree. Well stated.

[jclalor 12]

******

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With yesterday's suicide of Junior Seau, there are a lot of people out there discussing that suicide is wrong, not a solution, etc. But then there is self-euthanasia, which seems to be something that is looked upon differently.

Why is that? Is there a diference between mental illness and physical illness? Is a person who is facing mental deficits (as Seau may have been) and knowing that it will just get worse and worse somehow different from a person who is facing physical pain and knows it will only get worse.

It seems there is a fine line on this. I can argue both sides quite easily but I'm interested in what others have to say about it. Why is self-euthanasia view as different than suicide when they are both the same thing, really.

[/quote

This is a great topic, when I was in catholic middle school, I ask a teacher if I could do a paper on Karen Ann Quinlan, the young girl in the coma. He said that this was a great idea, why don't you do a paper on euthanasia, euthanasia? I thought, what the hell do kids in China have to do with suicide...

Many that are facing mental illness, are facing organic brain didorders that, at present can not be cured. if I ever got the dx of a dementia type illness, I woud never let my chid and famiyn have to deal with that.

[wmw999 2,602]

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suppose someone has lived a lifetime with incurable depression

I had an acquaintance who killed himself a few years ago, indicating that he didn't think he was capable of being happy, and that since his early teens it'd been the same (he was noticeably over 40). A series of failed relationships (in his view -- not others' )

Ya know -- I wish he's been able to find something that could have helped. I don't know if he had an unrealistic expectation of "happiness." But I do know that the note he left was heart-rending, and even another mutual friend, who felt that suicide was the most chickenshit thing in the world, felt sympathy.

Yeah, it's not always easy.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[airdvr 210]

If you're sick it's one thing. I wouldn't want to go through what the medical community would want me to unless there was a real good chance of survival. In that manner we treat animals better than people.

Taking your life because you are unhappy is just selfish. The damage you do to the people who love and care about you is inexcusable, and sets them up to follow suit.

He was a great ball player. I'll leave it at that.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Remster 30]

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Taking your life because you are unhappy is just selfish.

And asking for euthanasia because you have a few cells mutating into something strange is out of line too?

Severe depression is not simply being "unhappy". By the time you put a gun in your mouth and pull the trigger, I thing we can all agree that someone is more that just unhappy. Whether you want to accept that choice or not if your call, but to trivialize the person's condition as "unhappiness" is pretty lame.

Remster

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Taking your life because you are unhappy is just selfish.

And asking for euthanasia because you have a few cells mutating into something strange is out of line too?

Severe depression is not simply being "unhappy". By the time you put a gun in your mouth and pull the trigger, I thing we can all agree that someone is more that just unhappy. Whether you want to accept that choice or not if your call, but to trivialize the person's condition as "unhappiness" is pretty lame.

I agree. I think it's a shame that so many really have no idea the depths that depression can take a person. For many it is the only way to make the agony stop.

[lawrocket 3]

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I believe that if you say a condition is not terminal than most people would be against either self-euthanasia or suicide.

I understand that. But what about the conditions that aren't fatal but leave a person wracked with pain. I myself have had the discussion with people and have made the point, "You know, within three minutes from right now I could have you begging me to kill you. I could leave you with non-fatal injuries that leave you in such mental and physical pain that death would be preferable."

I think people DO tend to view mental illness as different from other forms of illness. I think it's a shame. And how does one talk sense into a person who may be senseless?

My own thought is that is a person has young kids, that person owes it to the kids to see them through to adulthood. But it's such a tough thing for me. I myself never want to understand it. I never want to be the person who can see good reasons because then it becomes reasonable.

I don't want that out.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[jakee 1,611]

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Why is that? Is there a diference between mental illness and physical illness?

Twp points to consider really, first (as mentioned) suicide for reasons of physical illness usually involves terminal illness. Second, mental illness very often affects your decision making ability. Someone in the middle of a severe bout of depression may have a different outlook on their future than they would during phases where the illness is more under control - even if they know it's going to get worse again.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Southern_Man 0]

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I understand that. But what about the conditions that aren't fatal but leave a person wracked with pain. I myself have had the discussion with people and have made the point, "You know, within three minutes from right now I could have you begging me to kill you. I could leave you with non-fatal injuries that leave you in such mental and physical pain that death would be preferable."

I think people DO tend to view mental illness as different from other forms of illness. I think it's a shame. And how does one talk sense into a person who may be senseless?

I have a hard time judging people who are in that situation. Frankly, I don't see a need to judge them either. I feel sorry for them.

It is a shame, specifically with mental illness, that we have such poor treatment options for so many chronic conditions. I hope that changes in the near future but we have such a low level of understanding of the root causes or the proximate causes that I am not holding my breath. One day we will be able to move beyond trial and error.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[kelpdiver 2]

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Why is that? Is there a diference between mental illness and physical illness?

Twp points to consider really, first (as mentioned) suicide for reasons of physical illness usually involves terminal illness. Second, mental illness very often affects your decision making ability. Someone in the middle of a severe bout of depression may have a different outlook on their future than they would during phases where the illness is more under control - even if they know it's going to get worse again.

This is the obvious answer to Lawrocket's question. In case of euthanasia for terminal patients, they are mentally competent to make this decision. This is generally not the case for suicides by the depressed.

Shrinks claim that a number of the Golden Gate Bridge jumpers are rash decisions rather than planned killings, and a large percentage of the survivors claim to have immediately regretted their decision instantly as they left the top.

[lawrocket 3]

I don't think the issue is "treatment options" so much as "getting treatment." You can't make a person get treatment. That's a problem. You cannot force a person into treatment unless that person gives good cause, i.e., an immediate and colorable danger to himself or others.

Other than that, you've got depressed people who aren't being treated - and often for good reason. Pilots can lose their license with a diagnosis of depression and treatment for it. Thus, there are people whose livelihoods are threatened by getting treatment.

Mental illness is pretty stigmatized. I've seen it on these forums where it's been argued that a sick person should have no rights under the second, fourth, fifth and sixth amendments. Who wants to get treated when they have so much to lose by seeking treatment?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[davjohns 1]

This would be hard to define. Life is terminal, so using the word terminal doesn't help. Pain is pain. Some would much rather face physical pain than emotional pain. And when the body and mind are tied together, when does one not effect the other?

Usually, people recognize when something is temporary and they avoid suicide. That's why the holidays are rarely a time for suicide (despite popular belief). Depressed people think it is just the holidays, so they don't do it. When it is long term, it gets hard to justify making someone live their own life when they want to leave.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[lawrocket 3]

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In case of euthanasia for terminal patients, they are mentally competent to make this decision. This is generally not the case for suicides by the depressed.

Really? What makes you think that a depressed person, or a person who wants the voices to stop, etc. who just want the torment to stop are not mentally competent to make that decision?

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a large percentage of the survivors claim to have immediately regretted their decision instantly as they left the top

This is an indication of their competence. A person is NOT incompetent one instant and then competent the next. Stupid decisions are made by competent people. Most drunk drivers are punished severely because they KNOW the risk and drive, anyway.

The depressed are usually functional people with mental competence and reason. The depressed spend days, weeks, months or YEARS pondering ending it. And eventually they reason out that death is better than a life of pain.

I don't think "competence" has much of anything to do with suicide among the depressed. They perform a cost/benefit analysis and decide.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Southern_Man 0]

Well, I think we have hashed some of this out in previous threads and we are largely in agreement.

I would say the efficacy of treatment is a huge problem for mental illnesses. If the medications were more effective I suspect we would see less people discontinue treatment. Of course that is just one part, as lack of insight also plays a huge part of discontinuation as well.

I am in no way in favor of forcing people to get treatment. I believe that is neither effective nor humane. They have the same right ot refuse treatment as somebody with a physical illness. Besides, "enforced treatment, we've been there and it is truly a horror show.

I do wish teh stigma was less. I don't know how to address that except one person at a time.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[kelpdiver 2]

Sorry, don't see it. Part of the problem is generalization, of course. There's a pretty wide scale between hormonal kids (who hardly have the experience to make an informed decision to kill themselves) to those with substantial issues. When a person kills their kids because voices in their head told them to, that doesn't sound mentally competent. You also didn't address the impulsive suicide, the reason that some used to support the idea of a suicide net on the bridge (I don't agree - terrible cost/benefit ratio).

If a bipolar person kills himself, did he make the decision at both ends, or just one? Is that a measured decision, like by someone with million dollars in bills who gives up?

[Southern_Man 0]

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If a bipolar person kills himself, did he make the decision at both ends, or just one? Is that a measured decision, like by someone with million dollars in bills who gives up?

Sometimes.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[killler 2]

You have the right to get off the ride anytime you want ... For any reason you like...

We have no right to judge a person making the most personal choice ....

killler....

[jgoose71 0]

Not to derail the conversation, but Jr Seau supposedly committed suicide by shooting himself in the chest.

Don't suicides usually shoot them selves in the head?

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[Southern_Man 0]

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Not to derail the conversation, but Jr Seau supposedly committed suicide by shooting himself in the chest.

Don't suicides usually shoot them selves in the head?

Yes, the theory is that he wanted to preserve his brain so it can be examined (for links to trauma). This was done by a different football player last year. I believe that at this point this is speculation in Seau's case.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[quade 4]

Less of a theory and more what he wrote in his suicide note.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[lawrocket 3]

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We have no right to judge a person making the most personal choice ....

Why not?

My wife is hotter than your wife.