Astronauts must be moonlighting for BIG OIL

[brenthutch 444]

http://notrickszone.com/2012/04/10/50-top-astronauts-scientists-engineers-sign-letter-claiming-giss-is-turning-nasa-into-a-laughing-stock

"We believe the claims by NASA and GISS, that man-made carbon dioxide is having a catastrophic impact on global climate change are not substantiated, especially when considering thousands of years of empirical data. With hundreds of well-known climate scientists and tens of thousands of other scientists publicly declaring their disbelief in the catastrophic forecasts, coming particularly from the GISS leadership, it is clear that the science is NOT settled."

[DanG 1]

It would be more impressive if the people who signed the letter were climitologists. There may be a few in there, but most were engineers or program managers. Hardly experts in the field.

- Dan G

[quade 4]

Several years ago there was a similar letter and when it was checked with the people who signed it, it was determined many of the people who signed it, signed it in reaction to a cover letter that misrepresented the petition.

It will be interesting to see if that's also the case here.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[winsor 236]

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It would be more impressive if the people who signed the letter were climitologists. There may be a few in there, but most were engineers or program managers. Hardly experts in the field.

Inasmuch as my text on Radiation Heat Transfer was the product of NASA Engineering, I beg to differ with your assertion that they are inexpert in the field.

Anyone who puts forth a model which describes the climate as a single-input single-output (SISO) system is definitively inexpert.

Latching onto one factor to the exclusion of all others is characteristic of someone who took a single watered-down "science" course in college and barely passed - someone like Al Gore.

Though CO2 is a factor, Global Warming/Climate Change is based on the kind of science that keeps comic books in print.


BSBD,

Winsor

[brenthutch 444]

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It would be more impressive if the people who signed the letter were climitologists. There may be a few in there, but most were engineers or program managers. Hardly experts in the field.

Asking a climatologists if AGW is a threat to the world is like asking a dog catcher if strays are a hazard.

[DanG 1]

Let's look at the job descriptions:

Space Shuttle Structures, Engineering
Mgr. Crew Systems Div.
Principal Investigator, Science Directorate
Principal Investigator, Science Directorate
Scientist – astronaut
Chief, Flight Design and Dynamics Division, MOD
Chief Flight Dynamics Div.
Astronaut, Apollo 7
Mgr. Shuttle Leading Edge, Thermal Protection Sys.
Hdq. Deputy Director, Space Shuttle Program
Chief, Theory & Analysis Office
Mgr., Flight Operations Integration, MOD
Chairman, Shuttle Pogo Prevention Panel
Astronaut, Apollo 16

Program Analyst
Astronaut Skylab 4
Astronaut, Gemini Xi, Apollo 12
Apollo Flight Director, and Director of JSC
Chief, Aircraft Maintenance and Engineering Branch

Reentry Specialist, MOD
Flight crew training and operations
JSC Branch Chief
Mgr. SE&I, Shuttle Program Office
Astronaut, Skylab 2, Director of Space and Life Sciences
Chief, Advanced Operations and Development Division, MOD
Apollo Flight Director and Director of JSC
Ass.t for Planning Aeroscience and Flight Mechanics Div.

Ass’t. Chief Materials Division
Mgr. Shuttle Program Control and Advance Programs
Project Engineer – Space Shuttle and ISS Program Offices
Hdq. Dep. Assoc. Admin. & Director, Space Station Program
Hdq., Assoc. Adm., Office of Space Flight

Apollo and Shuttle Program Office
Mgr. Motion Simulators
Chief, Structures and Dynamics Branch
Chief Engineer, Propulsion and Power Division
Astronaut Apollo 17
Asst. Manager, Quality Assurance
Ass’t Mgr., Systems Integration, Space Shuttle
Program Manager, Space Shuttle
Mgr. Shuttle Solid Rocket Boosters
JSC Materials Branch, Engineering Directorate
Flight Controller; Mercury, Gemini & Apollo, MOD
Avionics Systems Division
Astronaut, Apollo 15
Meteorologist

I've highlighted the ones who may be expert in climatology, and I've been generous. 6 out of 50. Some of these people are from the program office. You know what that means? They are MBAs at best.

- Dan G

[DanG 1]

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Asking a climatologists if AGW is a threat to the world is like asking a dog catcher if strays are a hazard.

Or asking a doctor if your tumor is dangerous. Much better idea to ask some structural engineers and program managers.

- Dan G

[lawrocket 3]

Why do things like this always have to be "50 Top Astronauts, Scientists, Engineers." While there are some good names on there (like Chris Kraft) there are some others who aren't. There are 8 people listed as astronauts. One of them (Philip Chapman) never flew (I really don't think "Top Astronaut" ca apply to anyone who hasn't been on when the hold down bolts blow). I don't think any of them ever commanded a mission (though Dick Gordon was one Apollo mission away from command). A couple of moon walkers, a couple more who went to the moon a couple from Skylab. But no commanders? 8 guys out of a little fewer than 500 people to earn silver wings?

I HATE when people put the subjective "Top" listing on things. It isn't representative. And it automatically makes me mistrust it.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,120]

Cool! Do you have a petition signed by top actors and sports legends, too? Some of them are climate scientists too, I hear.

[lawrocket 3]

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Asking a climatologists if AGW is a threat to the world is like asking a dog catcher if strays are a hazard.

Or asking a doctor if your tumor is dangerous. Much better idea to ask some structural engineers and program managers.

Note that these cats are apparently from the manned spaceflight program. So there is no doubt some departmental rivalry going on.

But they are also retired, meaning that they don't personally gain much from it.

And frankly, the climate scientist crowd is like a clique of frat dicks self-absorbed in their own limited access subculture. I hate to break it to you, but telling everybody else they don't know what they're talking about it ridiculous.

I like the doctor analogy. It would be a useful one to have because physicians realize that the practice of medicine is as much art as it is science. Physicians don't mind a person seeking a second opinion. Physicians refer off to other specialties to look at problems.

A climatologist is like a general practitioner/family doctor. The climatologist knows a little bit of everything. Meteorology. Physics. Astrophysics. Chemistry. Mathematics. Statistics. Geology. Oceanography. Computer science. Fluid dynamics.

It's also where they get into trouble by NOT being multidisciplinary in their approaches and the inquiries held in the UK over the CRU hack all pointed out that climate scientists are getting themselves in trouble by: (1) not being interdisciplinary (specifically, not utilizing professional statisticians to prevent selection bias); and (2) squelching second opinions.

Climatology is also art as much as science (professional judgment is REQUIRED in both jobs). Just like medicine. Let's go ask a doctor if that tumor is dangerous. That doctor you ask will no doubt ask another doctor whether that tumor is dangerous. How about a climate scientist? Will the climate scientist be asking Jack Schmidt whether the stratifications and sedimentary rock seen on this portion of the near coastline reflect a sea level that was higher at this point?

I'd like to see all professions knock it off with their arrogance that only climatologists can call bullshit on another climatologist. Unless it's Pat Michaels, or any other climatologist who causes dissent, in which case they are not to be asked because, well, they aren't REAL climatologists.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[brenthutch 444]

Data is data, I have looked at the unmolested proxies that Mann used and it is pretty clear that there is no hockey stick trend, only after the "experts" have "corrected" the data does the aforementioned trend appear.

A better analogy would be that if I went to the doctor with a sore throat and he told me that I had a compound fracture that would required immediate and expensive surgery to treat.

[DanG 1]

I agree that the climate community has done a lot of damage to their own credibility, but in some ways it's hard to blame them. The issue has become so politicized that you have idiots like us on a skydiving board trying to debate complex scientific issues.

I think most climate researchers are honest scientists trying to do good research. Some of the rock star wannabes have made them all look bad. It's a shame.

Back to the topic, this letter, if shown to be legitimate, doesn't actually address any of the science in any specific way. Even if the signers were knowledgable, they didn't do their opinion any justice either. This letter is doing the exact same thing you complain the "warmists" do. Until these people point out exactly what they object to, or provide alternate explanations for observations, they're appealing to authority in the worst way.

- Dan G

[Coreece 190]

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Cool! Do you have a petition signed by top actors and sports legends, too? Some of them are climate scientists too, I hear.

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We, the undersigned, respectfully request that NASA and the Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) refrain from including unproven remarks in public releases and websites....At risk is damage to the exemplary reputation of NASA, NASA’s current or former scientists and employees, and even the reputation of science itself.

I think these scientists have a better inkling as to what is actual science and what is simply passed off as faith...no so much with actors or athletes.

I read this as a plea to protect the integrity of science and the institution. This whole climate things seems to be turning into some type of religion for profit...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[lawrocket 3]

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A better analogy would be that if I went to the doctor with a sore throat and he told me that I had a compound fracture that would required immediate and expensive surgery to treat.

I disagree. It's if you went into a doctor for a physical and the doctor told you that you will are facing a pretty bleak future, and you'll need to go through a battery of tests every week to confirm whether you are or are not, but the symptoms are intermittent fatigue and alertness. Plus, he's got a product that he thinks will help and it'll only cost you $1k per week to use it, and it may be too late to prevent the intermittent fatigue and alertness but it will hopefully make it so that the events are not so extreme.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,151]

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Data is data,

No, data ARE data. The singular is "datum".

Some scientist you are!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,120]

>I think these scientists have a better inkling as to what is actual science
>and what is simply passed off as faith...no so much with actors or athletes.

I know two astronauts. Both are excellent at what they do. Neither are scientists.

On the other hand - that phone you're probably checking DZ.com on? The basic concept for its communication system was developed by a 50's actress, Hedy Lamarr.

I know, doesn't fit into the Hollywood stereotype of who these people are (ironically enough.) But that's one reason that I am no longer impressed by people who use catchphrases like "astronauts agree with me!"

[DanG 1]

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I disagree. It's if you went into a doctor for a physical and the doctor told you that you will are facing a pretty bleak future, and you'll need to go through a battery of tests every week to confirm whether you are or are not, but the symptoms are intermittent fatigue and alertness. Plus, he's got a product that he thinks will help and it'll only cost you $1k per week to use it, and it may be too late to prevent the intermittent fatigue and alertness but it will hopefully make it so that the events are not so extreme.

What if you went to 100 other docts to get second, third, et cetera, opinions? Some people are going to latch on to the two guys who say you're fine. Others are going to go with the 98 guys that agreed with the first doctor. Which type of person are you?

- Dan G

[lawrocket 3]

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he issue has become so politicized that you have idiots like us on a skydiving board trying to debate complex scientific issues.

Of course, it wouldn't be so politicized if they weren't injecting themselves into policy debate. Leave policy to politicians and science to scientists. Hansen's 1988 Congressional testimony is per se political. Making predictions is one thing. Making public predictions to get more attention is another.

They've politicized it. It's like an arsonist claiming that he didn't mean to burn the whole town down. Just a building.

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I think most climate researchers are honest scientists trying to do good research.

I agree. The problem is that "good research" is being directed. The rock star wannabes are the ones who decide what is good research and what isn't. Hence, the CRU hack reveals e-mails discussing reprisals against journals that publish research that disagrees. (In the business world that would be barred under anti-trust statutes.)

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Back to the topic, this letter, if shown to be legitimate, doesn't actually address any of the science in any specific way.

Of course it doesn't. It's an attempt to direct funding from GISS to space travel.

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This letter is doing the exact same thing you complain the "warmists" do.

Yep. Which is why my first post was critical. They're looking to direct a piece of the pie from GISS to Space operations. Which, of course, is done by political bullshit of just this sort.

Like climate scientists, let us not allow persons to attack the underlying data. The message of "the future is bleak, and we know it because we say so and we are experts" is all that is needed.

Astronaut - still holds a lot of prestige. If an astronaut says it...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,120]

>I disagree. It's if you went into a doctor for a physical and the doctor told
>you that you will are facing a pretty bleak future, and you'll need to go
>through a battery of tests every week to confirm whether you are or are
>not, but the symptoms are intermittent fatigue and alertness. Plus, he's
>got a product that he thinks will help and it'll only cost you $1k per week
>to use it, and it may be too late to prevent the intermittent fatigue and
>alertness but it will hopefully make it so that the events are not so
>extreme.

And if 99 other doctors agreed with him and told you you had leukemia, would you still ignore him? Or would you start that expensive chemotherapy if it had a good chance of saving your life?

Now imagine someone presented you with a petition by top astronauts that all said they doubted that you really had leukemia. Who would you go with?

[DanG 1]

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...Hedy Lamarr...

It's Hedley!

- Dan G

[lawrocket 3]

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What if you went to 100 other docts to get second, third, et cetera, opinions? Some people are going to latch on to the two guys who say you're fine.

Yep. It's human nature. We've been fighting human nature since humans appeared in nature. My wife had several opinions that she couldn't get pregnant without an egg donor by specialists who know their shit. Over a many year period, in fact.

Three months after the last one told us from his Madison Avenue office she was knocked up. Sometimes EVERY opinion is wrong, proving that science just has not yet progressed to the point of certainty with some things. From a scientific point of view, she never could become pregnant. She's now on pregnancy number 2 - two years later. And she's a physician who knows exactly what the data meant.

There are statistical outliers that happen. Thank goodness science isn't always correct.

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Others are going to go with the 98 guys that agreed with the first doctor. Which type of person are you?

I'm usually the guy who takes what the first one tells me and goes with it. Unless there is something that doesn't make sense. I had a doctor tell me that the groins surgery I was going to have was "minor." Sorry, doc. Any time a knife is near my junk is pretty major.

So you can see that my physician wife would challenge and disagree with medical advice she searched for and look for other answers as far as what else could be done. I'm on the other side. We coexist nicely. It can be done. She wasn't wrong. I wasn't right. But in talking about a future of probabilities, certainty is a tough call to make.

The climate scientists are speaking in terms of certainty. Certainty takes all of the fun out of the possibilities.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

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And if 99 other doctors agreed with him and told you you had leukemia, would you still ignore him? Or would you start that expensive chemotherapy if it had a good chance of saving your life?

See my previous response. Yes, I'd look at the cost/benefits.

But if you went to a doctor and the doctor said, "I've run a model, and all four scenarios say you're going to get leukemia by 2050 unless you do something. Here's a list of physicians for other opinions. They're the only ones who know what I'm talking about."

I don't think I'd start expensive chemotherapy. I can't be certain, but...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,151]

It's better by far to think you see a tiger in the grass when there isn't one there, than not to see the tiger in the grass that's waiting to pounce on you.

Just because the science is only 98% settled doesn't mean we shouldn't act on it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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It would be more impressive if the people who signed the letter were climitologists. There may be a few in there, but most were engineers or program managers. Hardly experts in the field.

Funny, that - James Hansen is pretty highly thought of by the alarmists and he's a physics PHD.

Or Michael Mann, Master in Physics, PHD in Geology.

Don't think I've noticed any of the alarmists with a degree in climatology.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,151]

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It would be more impressive if the people who signed the letter were climitologists. There may be a few in there, but most were engineers or program managers. Hardly experts in the field.

Funny, that - James Hansen is pretty highly thought of by the alarmists and he's a physics PHD.

Or Michael Mann, Master in Physics, PHD in Geology.

Don't think I've noticed any of the alarmists with a degree in climatology.

Physics applies to everything. Astronaut training doesn't.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.