kelpdiver 2 #101 March 29, 2012 we seem to have lost the plot again. The subject at hand is will it be ruled constitutional, not should it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #102 March 29, 2012 QuoteSo it is not a Health Care issue, it is a Justice issue. It's a socialism issue. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #103 March 29, 2012 Quotewe seem to have lost the plot again. The subject at hand is will it be ruled constitutional, not should it. I'm still waiting for someone to expalin to me, without the usual emotional appeal, why they think such a law is constitutional. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #104 March 29, 2012 QuoteQuotewe seem to have lost the plot again. The subject at hand is will it be ruled constitutional, not should it. I'm still waiting for someone to expalin to me, without the usual emotional appeal, why they think such a law is constitutional. well, if you are asking that, then you've also moved from your initial polling question. Why and should are effectively the same question. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterblaster72 0 #105 March 29, 2012 I'm not sure if the health care issue is constitutional, but what I would like to know is why this is being tried at the highest level while the Patriot Act never was. Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #106 March 29, 2012 QuoteI'm not sure if the health care issue is constitutional, but what I would like to know is why this is being tried at the highest level while the Patriot Act never was. It was. Part of the Patriot Act was unfortunately upheld 6-3. it was the part that penalized providing "material support" to terrorists. I think it was in the summer of 2010. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #107 March 29, 2012 QuoteQuoteSo it is not a Health Care issue, it is a Justice issue. It's a socialism issue. How about Wickard v. Filburn? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn Roscoe Filburn grew wheat to feed his livestock in excess of his permitted allotment under a depression era law intended to keep prices high. His lawyers argued that since he wasn't selling wheat Congress couldn't limit his production under the commerce clause. SCOTUS rejected that stating that if he wasn't growing his own wheat he'd have to buy it on the open market thereby effectively compelling him to purchase a product. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #108 March 30, 2012 Wickard doesn't apply to what skyDekker and I were discussing. But, yes, Wickard v. Fillbun is the case that opened the door to federal government regulating anythign and everythign under the effects test. The federal government can picking your nose because of the effect it has on the facial tissue industry. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,131 #109 March 30, 2012 QuoteWe will all eventually die and need to be buried somewhere or otherwise incur some related expense. Does the government have the right to force you to purchase a cemetary plot or prepay for cremation if that's your choice? Why are you so supportive of a system that allows some people to freeload off the rest of us?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #110 March 30, 2012 QuoteWhy are you so supportive of a system that allows some people to freeload off the rest of us? Why are you supportive of a system that expands the pool of those to be freeloaded off of? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,131 #111 March 30, 2012 QuoteQuoteWhy are you so supportive of a system that allows some people to freeload off the rest of us? Why are you supportive of a system that expands the pool of those to be freeloaded off of? Because it reduces the number of freeloaders.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #112 March 30, 2012 QuoteWickard doesn't apply to what skyDekker and I were discussing. But, yes, Wickard v. Fillbun is the case that opened the door to federal government regulating anythign and everythign under the effects test. The federal government can picking your nose because of the effect it has on the facial tissue industry. All of these are conditional regardless of being state or federal mandates. If one does not want to be subjected to it, they can just not do what is being regulated. Don't want to pay taxes? Don't make any money, buy anything, or own anything. Don't want to buy car insurance? Don;t own a car. Don't want to be searched by the TSA? Don't travel. Etc. etc, There are ways to avoid it totally. The problem with this is the condition is life itself. Very few laws/regulations are mandated just off a person being alive. Immunizations is the only one I can think of right now but sure there are others but NONE of those require one to buy a product based on the sole condition that they're alive. I can't see this mandate being ruled constitutional. In my mind the only question is how much or if all of the rest of it goes away.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #113 March 30, 2012 QuoteQuoteSo it is not a Health Care issue, it is a Justice issue. It's a socialism issue. +100"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 186 #114 March 30, 2012 QuoteWe will all eventually die and need to be buried somewhere or otherwise incur some related expense. Does the government have the right to force you to purchase a cemetary plot or prepay for cremation if that's your choice? They should, since goverment pays for indigent burial costs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #115 March 30, 2012 Quote Quote Why are you so supportive of a system that allows some people to freeload off the rest of us? Why are you supportive of a system that expands the pool of those to be freeloaded off of? OhThis one will leave a mark"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #116 March 30, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteWhy are you so supportive of a system that allows some people to freeload off the rest of us? Why are you supportive of a system that expands the pool of those to be freeloaded off of? Because it reduces the number of freeloaders. No It increases them A goal of yours"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,131 #117 March 30, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWhy are you so supportive of a system that allows some people to freeload off the rest of us? Why are you supportive of a system that expands the pool of those to be freeloaded off of? Because it reduces the number of freeloaders. No It increases them A goal of yours "You might just as well say,' added the Dormouse, who seemed to be talking in his sleep, `that "I breathe when I sleep" is the same thing as "I sleep when I breathe"!'... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 186 #118 March 30, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteSo it is not a Health Care issue, it is a Justice issue. It's a socialism issue. +100 Welfare Farmers Indigent emergency medicine care School programs Indigent burial Unemployment benefits Government nursing homes The list goes on and on, but now all of a sudden everyone is worried about Socialism, after all of these years. And everyone is a Capitalist, until gas hits $4 a gallon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,131 #119 March 30, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteSo it is not a Health Care issue, it is a Justice issue. It's a socialism issue. +100 Welfare Farmers Indigent emergency medicine care School programs Indigent burial Unemployment benefits Government nursing homes The list goes on and on, . Defense contractors, state colleges, road users, airline passengers...... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,095 #120 March 30, 2012 >Welfare >Farmers >Indigent emergency medicine care >School programs >Indigent burial >Unemployment benefits >Government nursing homes >The list goes on and on Yep. I remember when skydivers were protesting a potential privatization of air traffic control services because it would cost them money. "Well, I'm all for capitalism - as long as I don't have to pay more for what the government should provide for free!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ShcShc11 0 #121 March 30, 2012 Quote>Welfare >Farmers >Indigent emergency medicine care >School programs >Indigent burial >Unemployment benefits >Government nursing homes >The list goes on and on Yep. I remember when skydivers were protesting a potential privatization of air traffic control services because it would cost them money. "Well, I'm all for capitalism - as long as I don't have to pay more for what the government should provide for free!" Well of course. Some corporations are for a tax reform, but became against it when there were talks about closing abusive corporate tax loops (we're not talking about just banks or other stereotyped "evil corporations"... Apple & Google got to be against it when their tax loop holes were threatened). People talk about "cutting deficits" (balancing the budget) yet these same people advocate tax cuts which in fact increase the deficit (quite massively too) If people have time, it would be great to sit down and read the Ryan Budget Plan (The GOP's "Path to Prosperity" budget plan). It contains barely in the specifics especially in the tax reform section - its honestly almost Orwellian. Cheers and Hugs! Shc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ShcShc11 0 #122 March 30, 2012 Charles Fried's comments in the Washington Post: Charles Fried was Ronald Reagan’s solicitor general. The 38th Solicitor General of the United States said: CF: I’ve never understood why regulating by making people go buy something is somehow more intrusive than regulating by making them pay taxes and then giving it to them. I don’t get it. It was comical to read the Heritage Foundation’s brief attempting to explain why they were changing their position on this. Something needed to be done about this problem. Everyone understood that. So, the Heritage Foundation said let’s do an individual mandate because it keeps it within free enterprise. The alternative was single payer. And they didn’t want that, and I’m in sympathy with that. So now all of a sudden the free-market alternative becomes unconstitutional and terribly intrusive where a government imposition and government-run project would not be? I don’t get it. Well, I do get it. It’s politics. Universal Health Care is constitutional yet the privatized version (created by the Republicans in the 1990s) isin't... The same people (Heritage Fund) who created the system are advocating privatizing Social Security with mandatory purchases from individuals . If the Republicans privatize Social Security, would this too not be considered unconstitutional? Hugs & Cheers! Shc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterblaster72 0 #123 March 30, 2012 QuoteQuoteI'm not sure if the health care issue is constitutional, but what I would like to know is why this is being tried at the highest level while the Patriot Act never was. It was. Part of the Patriot Act was unfortunately upheld 6-3. it was the part that penalized providing "material support" to terrorists. I think it was in the summer of 2010. Interesting -- thanks. Will read further about it. Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #124 March 30, 2012 QuoteQuoteWe will all eventually die and need to be buried somewhere or otherwise incur some related expense. Does the government have the right to force you to purchase a cemetary plot or prepay for cremation if that's your choice? They should, since goverment pays for indigent burial costs. Where? I'd like to know. AFAIK, there is a small social security death benefit ($500 if memory serves me correctly. That is not based on anybody being indigent. There are no other government programs where I live that pay for indigent burial costs."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #125 March 30, 2012 Quotebut now all of a sudden everyone is worried about Socialism, after all of these years. What do you mean "all of a sudden?" Those have been discussed on here since the days we were discussing it it the Bonfire. And were discussed long before this site was up. But this law - the individual mandate - is something that it so much more than the federal government has ever tried before. Another poster cited Wickard v. Filburn, where the it was found by the stacked court that the federal government can ban private growing and stockpiling of wheat for non-commercial purposes. The individual mandate would be the equivalent (in my mind) of a requirement that people buy corn and do so from an exchange. No farmer's markets or grocery stores. A central corn buying facility. But everybody just goes to the corn facility and gets corn. Even those with corn gluten allergies buy into it. And the problems associated with giving it away My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
