kallend 2,150 #2501 July 20, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote There are consequences to poorly thought out stupid decisions. Yep, Zimmerman is paying the price. And I guess you dont think TM is Go figure Well, we know Z made a decision that has backfired on him. We have no idea what TM's thought processes were, and no idea if Z is actually telling the truth about the events that night. About all we do know FOR SURE is that TM is dead and that Z shot him. All else depends on whom you choose to believe. And you have made it very clear you have your mind made up Indeed I have - it is that a jury should decide the facts of the case, rather than you.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 898 #2502 July 20, 2012 If there is zero evidence to bring a case to trial the legal process is fully vetted. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #2503 July 20, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote There are consequences to poorly thought out stupid decisions. Yep, Zimmerman is paying the price. And I guess you dont think TM is Go figure Well, we know Z made a decision that has backfired on him. We have no idea what TM's thought processes were, and no idea if Z is actually telling the truth about the events that night. About all we do know FOR SURE is that TM is dead and that Z shot him. All else depends on whom you choose to believe. And you have made it very clear you have your mind made up Indeed I have - it is that a jury should decide the facts of the case, rather than you. I never said I should decide Just like I dont think you or billvon should decide if it goes to a jury There are professionals who do that Not you or the media"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #2504 July 20, 2012 >Just like I dont think you or billvon should decide if it goes to a jury Agreed! >There are professionals who do that ?? I assume you meant "there are juries who do that." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #2505 July 20, 2012 Quote>Just like I dont think you or billvon should decide if it goes to a jury Agreed! >There are professionals who do that ?? I assume you meant "there are juries who do that." Nope, DA's and police And they (for the most part) do a good job unless they get played by the media and politicians as it seems they have in this case And my position on this is solidified by the bs handed down from the grand jury by the "special" prosecutor"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #2506 July 20, 2012 QuoteThis is my understanding of how it actually went down anyway. Cops looked at the evidence in front of them, witness statements, Zimmerman's statements, considered the law, pressed no charges and turned it over to the State Attorney office. ..........and then........ I thought I read in a link from one of the earlier pages in this thread, that the Police Officer wanted to charge him, to send it to the Prosecutor, and the Prosecutor looked at the available evidence and declined, did I misread that? MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #2507 July 20, 2012 QuoteQuoteThis is my understanding of how it actually went down anyway. Cops looked at the evidence in front of them, witness statements, Zimmerman's statements, considered the law, pressed no charges and turned it over to the State Attorney office. ..........and then........ I thought I read in a link from one of the earlier pages in this thread, that the Police Officer wanted to charge him, to send it to the Prosecutor, and the Prosecutor looked at the available evidence and declined, did I misread that? Matt I think you got it right Remember The shooting happened almost a month before the media went dishonestly viral with this story"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #2508 July 20, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote No, I want him to go to court because he killed an unarmed teenager. That had doubled back on him, and was beating the shit out of him while telling him he was going to die. Let's not leave that very important part out. Well, that's Z's version of the events. I wonder what TM's version is? Our prisons are full of people who proclaim their innocence. Do you believe all of them? Haven't you argued the exact opposite when discussing the death penalty? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #2509 July 20, 2012 Quote Well, that's Z's version of the events. I wonder what TM's version is? Hey John, you do seem to have bais that Zimmerman is guilty of something. My honest question: Why would you believe the story being sold for TM over what Zimmerman is saying? Your one of the most logical people I know, but is your leaning in this case just based on the fact that someone got killed so someone must have done something that they sb punished for? From everything I can read, Zimmerman may be guilty of being a dumbass.....but so far what do you see - if anything - that says he wasn't within his rights to defend himself? The physical evidence seems to back up Zimmermans story.Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #2510 July 20, 2012 Quote>Just like I dont think you or billvon should decide if it goes to a jury Agreed! >There are professionals who do that ?? I assume you meant "there are juries who do that." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nope, DA's and police And they (for the most part) do a good job unless they get played by the media and politicians as it seems they have in this case And my position on this is solidified by the bs handed down from the grand jury by the "special" prosecutor Uhm, not sure you fully understand the judicial system in your country if you think Police and DAs decide what the facts are in a case. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #2511 July 20, 2012 QuoteQuote>Just like I dont think you or billvon should decide if it goes to a jury Agreed! >There are professionals who do that ?? I assume you meant "there are juries who do that." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nope, DA's and police And they (for the most part) do a good job unless they get played by the media and politicians as it seems they have in this case And my position on this is solidified by the bs handed down from the grand jury by the "special" prosecutor Uhm, not sure you fully understand the judicial system in your country if you think Police and DAs decide what the facts are in a case. I said they gather the evidense. Policle give that to procecutors. Prococetors decide whether to charge. Juries decide guilt or inoncence. If the evidence supports no charge, then the suspect walks as there is not enough evidence to charge or try"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #2512 July 20, 2012 Quote I thought I read in a link from one of the earlier pages in this thread, that the Police Officer wanted to charge him, to send it to the Prosecutor, and the Prosecutor looked at the available evidence and declined, did I misread that? It was the primary investigator, I believe. (Detective Serino) Not sure if the other officers involved agreed, did not, or were neutral. I believe he viewed it as a negligent manslaughter charge. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #2513 July 20, 2012 QuoteI said they gather the evidense. Policle give that to procecutors. Prococetors decide whether to charge. Juries decide guilt or inoncence. That's not what you said above, but after this I'll take it that's what you meant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #2514 July 20, 2012 QuoteIf there is zero evidence to bring a case to trial the legal process is fully vetted. I didn't say there was zero evidence. I said that what **we** (as in the folks pontificating in this thread) **know** **for** **sure** is very little beyond that TM is dead and Z shot him.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #2515 July 20, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote No, I want him to go to court because he killed an unarmed teenager. That had doubled back on him, and was beating the shit out of him while telling him he was going to die. Let's not leave that very important part out. Well, that's Z's version of the events. I wonder what TM's version is? Our prisons are full of people who proclaim their innocence. Do you believe all of them? Haven't you argued the exact opposite when discussing the death penalty? Nope.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #2516 July 20, 2012 QuoteQuote Well, that's Z's version of the events. I wonder what TM's version is? Hey John, you do seem to have bais that Zimmerman is guilty of something. My honest question: Why would you believe the story being sold for TM over what Zimmerman is saying? You must have access to information I don't have, then. No, I'm ONLY arguing that what Z says is not necessarily true, and that the only correct forum for a decision on the facts of the case is a jury trial. I have no idea if Z is telling the truth. Neither do you, normiss, rushmc, gravitymaster, billvon... nor any of the other usual suspects around here.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #2517 July 20, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote No, I want him to go to court because he killed an unarmed teenager. That had doubled back on him, and was beating the shit out of him while telling him he was going to die. Let's not leave that very important part out. Well, that's Z's version of the events. I wonder what TM's version is? Our prisons are full of people who proclaim their innocence. Do you believe all of them? Haven't you argued the exact opposite when discussing the death penalty? Nope. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3051768#3051768 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #2518 July 20, 2012 Quote You must have access to information I don't have, then. Nope just what has been released (right or wrong that it has been) through the police. The physical evidence seems to support Z's story. If that is so - than DISREGARD whatever Zimmerman says cause no one will believe him. It's going to have to come down to the physical evidence and that seems to all be on his side. Quote No, I'm ONLY arguing that what Z says is not necessarily true, and that the only correct forum for a decision on the facts of the case is a jury trial. So what your really saying is that in your mind the only way to see what the truth is to have a trial, that the physical evidence isn't enough to clear Zimmerman? (Wounds) I'm not saying your wrong, just trying to follow your logic. FWIW (not much) I am starting to lean to the trial idea but I'm not there yet. I'd like to see if there is any more physical evidence, or witnesses.Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #2519 July 20, 2012 QuoteSo what your really saying is that in your mind the only way to see what the truth is to have a trial, that the physical evidence isn't enough to clear Zimmerman? (Wounds) I'm not saying your wrong, just trying to follow your logic. FWIW (not much) I am starting to lean to the trial idea but I'm not there yet. I'd like to see if there is any more physical evidence, or witnesses. Personally, I would consider wounds evidence of an altercation at best. It's highly unlikely that the wounds are evidence of who provoked whom. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #2520 July 20, 2012 QuoteQuoteSo what your really saying is that in your mind the only way to see what the truth is to have a trial, that the physical evidence isn't enough to clear Zimmerman? (Wounds) I'm not saying your wrong, just trying to follow your logic. FWIW (not much) I am starting to lean to the trial idea but I'm not there yet. I'd like to see if there is any more physical evidence, or witnesses. Personally, I would consider wounds evidence of an altercation at best. It's highly unlikely that the wounds are evidence of who provoked whom. Blues, Dave You think Z broke his own nose and slammed the back of his head against the sidewalk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #2521 July 20, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteSo what your really saying is that in your mind the only way to see what the truth is to have a trial, that the physical evidence isn't enough to clear Zimmerman? (Wounds) I'm not saying your wrong, just trying to follow your logic. FWIW (not much) I am starting to lean to the trial idea but I'm not there yet. I'd like to see if there is any more physical evidence, or witnesses. Personally, I would consider wounds evidence of an altercation at best. It's highly unlikely that the wounds are evidence of who provoked whom. Blues, Dave You think Z broke his own nose and slammed the back of his head against the sidewalk? I suppose it's possible that's what I meant by "altercation", but it seems pretty unlikely, don'cha think? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #2522 July 20, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote No, I want him to go to court because he killed an unarmed teenager. That had doubled back on him, and was beating the shit out of him while telling him he was going to die. Let's not leave that very important part out. Well, that's Z's version of the events. I wonder what TM's version is? Our prisons are full of people who proclaim their innocence. Do you believe all of them? Haven't you argued the exact opposite when discussing the death penalty? Nope. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3051768#3051768 Quote After the UK abolished the death penalty the authorities actually took the time to investigate a number of the troubling cases, and discovered a remarkable number of miscarriages of justice. Posthumous pardons, however, don't do much for the wrongly executed That is FACT about a handful of "troubling cases", not an argument for believing all felons who plead "not guilty". If that's the best you can do, then you've lost.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #2523 July 20, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote No, I want him to go to court because he killed an unarmed teenager. That had doubled back on him, and was beating the shit out of him while telling him he was going to die. Let's not leave that very important part out. Well, that's Z's version of the events. I wonder what TM's version is? Our prisons are full of people who proclaim their innocence. Do you believe all of them? Haven't you argued the exact opposite when discussing the death penalty? Nope. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3051768#3051768 Quote After the UK abolished the death penalty the authorities actually took the time to investigate a number of the troubling cases, and discovered a remarkable number of miscarriages of justice. Posthumous pardons, however, don't do much for the wrongly executed That is FACT about a handful of "troubling cases", not an argument for believing all felons who plead "not guilty". If that's the best you can do, then you've lost. Just like if we were being chased by a bear. I don't have to out run the bear, I only have to out run you. Clearly you have posted information in the past that indicates you think their is a lot of miscarriages of justice which landed innocent people in jail. This is at odds with your current claim. +1 Gravitymaster/0 Kallend Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #2524 July 20, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteSo what your really saying is that in your mind the only way to see what the truth is to have a trial, that the physical evidence isn't enough to clear Zimmerman? (Wounds) I'm not saying your wrong, just trying to follow your logic. FWIW (not much) I am starting to lean to the trial idea but I'm not there yet. I'd like to see if there is any more physical evidence, or witnesses. Personally, I would consider wounds evidence of an altercation at best. It's highly unlikely that the wounds are evidence of who provoked whom. Blues, Dave You think Z broke his own nose and slammed the back of his head against the sidewalk? Nope. It's pretty clear that TM did that. It's pretty clear from the evidence and the eyewitness testimony that GZ was losing the fight when the short was fired. But who started the fight? Nobody witnessed that part. Did TM double back, confront GZ and start the fight? Or did GZ keep looking after ending the 911 call, encounter TM and then (let's imagine) grab onto TM and say something like "I got you now", at which point TM then defended himself against an attack? The only story we have is GZ's. He will tell his side of the story in a way that puts him in the best possible llight. It may even be mostly true. But TM's version of the events is almost certainly different. And he can't tell it. And IIRC, the cop who wanted to see charges filed didn't believe GZ's version of the story. And regardless of who started the final fight, GZ initiated the incident. He decided TM was "on something", and "up to something" and started following him. After TM realized he was being followed and tried to evade, GZ got out of his car and pursued TM. Chased after if you will. With no arrest authority, no power to stop and question (if he had detained TM he could easily have faced charges ranging all the way up to kidnapping), no nothing. And while it's perfectly legal to follow someone, it is a provocative act. And getting out of his car to continue pursuit after TM tried to evade is a very aggressive act. Try it sometime. On a teenager. Maybe near a school. See what happens."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #2525 July 20, 2012 QuoteClearly you have posted information in the past that indicates you think their is a lot of miscarriages of justice which landed innocent people in jail. This is at odds with your current claim. Might I offer a suggestion?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
