Violent crime Vs. Financial crime

[kallend 2,148]

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Note: I am certainly not advising people to commit check fraud.

Nope, even more lucrative and less hazardous to become a banker and take government bailout money.

Or have an even more lucrative job as the politician or bureaucrat who takes kallend's money and gives it to bankers, in exchange for a contribution commensurate with the assistance...

Politicians can be thrown out of office, and even the corrupt ones don't make as much as bankers.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[shah269 0]

This is not an easy discussion
For one the same people who are committing some of these financial crimes are those who are holding our future retirements hostage.


Perhaps we can limit the immunity these guys have by maybe bringing back pension funds? Then we can treat a crime as a crime and if need be throw a few of these well to do folks on death row for their premeditated greed.


Look don't get me wrong here every one is entitled to make a living and doing well based on their hard work. But theft is theft. And that's just not right.

Just my thoughts. And again by no means is this an easythi g to talk about.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[kallend 2,148]

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This is not an easy discussion
For one the same people who are committing some of these financial crimes are those who are holding our future retirements hostage.


Perhaps we can limit the immunity these guys have by maybe bringing back pension funds? Then we can treat a crime as a crime and if need be throw a few of these well to do folks on death row for their premeditated greed.


Look don't get me wrong here every one is entitled to make a living and doing well based on their hard work. But theft is theft. And that's just not right.

Just my thoughts. And again by no means is this an easythi g to talk about.

I don't see that executing them helps. Just confiscate all their assets and have them work community service for 20 years.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[shah269 0]

These guys are smart they know how to hide money. So when they get out they will still be doing well and in the mean time the family will be living the good life

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[lawrocket 3]

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Politicians can be thrown out of office, and even the corrupt ones don't make as much as bankers

Depends on what you consider that they are making. Why would Meg Whitman spend over $100 million of her own money on a gubernatorial campaign? It seems that politicians find some kind of return on their investment worthy of spending a personal fortune.

Politics is about power. A hedge fund manager may deal with $50 billion in his fund. That's chump change to a guy who has the power to deal with $500 billion. That's why I frequently point out that these bankers getting bonuses paid with taxpayer money had people who control that taxpayer money give it to them.

Why don't I have a problem with a woman getting welfare after winning the lottery? Because my problem is with the system that enables it. My problem is not that Chrysler and GM received billions from TARP - my problem is that people gave Chrysler and GM billions from TARP.

My problem is not with those people cozying up to politicians. My problem is that politicians put it out there that they can be cozied up to. And they provide rewards with other peoples' money.

Politicians do make more than bankers. Because some people don't want the money so much as the power. Would you rather be the big money banker or the politician that the bankers know has the power to make or break them?

Some people would rather be the politician. "I've got Warren Buffett asking me for help. ha! I have the power to make or break Warren Buffett. Let's see what he'll do for it."

Those people exist, John.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

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For one the same people who are committing some of these financial crimes are those who are holding our future retirements hostage.

Pension funds are losing loads of money not because of improper management but because of promises that were made long ago that promised benefits paid for today. The worst offenders are governments themselves - here in California both the State Teachers Retirement System and California Public Employees Retirement System are dramatically underfunded. They were doing okay in the 2000's when the economy was booming. But the slump in the economy as well as the massive burden of paying off promises have intersected.

It's easy to look at the 100 guys pulling in $5 million a year. What's more difficult to look at is the mass of retirees who will cost $100 billion a year from taxpayer money because that benefit is spread out to thousands.

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Perhaps we can limit the immunity these guys have by maybe bringing back pension funds? Then we can treat a crime as a crime and if need be throw a few of these well to do folks on death row for their premeditated greed.

There's been a problem with this, too. Google Millberg Weiss Scandal. Google Bill Lerach. Take a look at what they did about corporate theft. They framed themselves as the people who fought for the little man against corporate greed. What they were doing was effectively plaintiffs' class action lawyers racketeering. Every time a stock price dropped, they sued in a class action against the corporate boards. Always first.

It turns out that they had powerful political support, for they contributed greatly to politicians to ensure that rules were not created or lifted that would affect their racket. And among the clients Millberg Weiss represented frequently were pensions.

On top of that, check out various pensions. Let's say you have 100 funds to look to. Are you going to go to the fund with a fund that is ranked 75 out of those 100 for the last ten years to put your money in? Or are you going to try to get into one of the top funds?

If you'll want the best performing fund, congrats - you are like most everybody else.

It's what happens with our system. I think the problems with the system are encouraged by politics and other problems are caused by lawyers. When politicians and lawyers join forces, holy hell.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Depends on what you consider that they are making. Why would Meg Whitman spend over $100 million of her own money on a gubernatorial campaign? It seems that politicians find some kind of return on their investment worthy of spending a personal fortune.

you're assuming they are seeking to make money on the venture, which is not a given. If I had a 100M in petty cash sitting around, I'd blow it on a flight into space. Terribly inefficient use of money, but it's my money to blow as I seek, right? Buying a seat in Congress has long been a sport of the very rich.

[lawrocket 3]

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you're assuming they are seeking to make money on the venture, which is not a given

No. I assuming that they are seeking to buy power.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,116]

>Why don't I have a problem with a woman getting welfare after winning the lottery?
>Because my problem is with the system that enables it.

Gotta disagree with that. The philosophy that "it's not the offender, it's the _system_" doesn't hold much water with me. People are responsible for their actions.

There are a dozen ways that you can "get around the system." There's not a system in the world that doesn't have loopholes or ways to exploit it. No one can make a perfect system - but that doesn't mean that no one should create any systems.

[lawrocket 3]

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Gotta disagree with that. The philosophy that "it's not the offender, it's the _system_" doesn't hold much water with me. People are responsible for their actions.

I can't disagree with you. On the other hand, take a look at what people on here identify as the problem: bankers receiving big money at taxpayer expense (and, admittedly, bankers receiving money through big bonuses).

I have a problem with my tax money going to bankers for their bonuses. But take a look at things now:

The Huffington Post reported in November that Justice Department prosecutions for financial fraud are at a 20 year low. When the SEC gets involved, we've got judges rejecting settlements that are mere slaps on the wrists. Tens of billions of our dollars bailed the banks out. Meanwhile, hedge funds holding commercial paper got bailed out, too, because they saw their lousy investments worth something.

It's not Obama's fault. We've now got an established history in the US. If you are big enough and you fail, we'll cover you. Or, more astutely, if you supported the winner you shall reap the rewards.

It's not a level playing field. Yeah, I've got a problem with the banks taking our tax dollars. I've got a problem with them asking for our tax dollars.

But it's much like I have a problem with my son asking to ride his bike without a helmet. Yes, he shouldn't be asking me. But if I take the helmet from him and say, "go ahead" then it's MY fault.

I have a lesser problem with people looking for a good deal than I do with people who give some people a good deal with other people's money. It's picking winners (bankers) and losers (taxpayers). The bankers fucked up. Let them face the consequences of their actions. Let failed systems fail.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Bolas 5]

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>Why don't I have a problem with a woman getting welfare after winning the lottery?
>Because my problem is with the system that enables it.

Gotta disagree with that. The philosophy that "it's not the offender, it's the _system_" doesn't hold much water with me. People are responsible for their actions.

There are a dozen ways that you can "get around the system." There's not a system in the world that doesn't have loopholes or ways to exploit it. No one can make a perfect system - but that doesn't mean that no one should create any systems.

Defeatist attitude. Software companies do this all the time. As new vulnerabilities are discovered, they make updates to eliminate them.

It's the offender, and the system. Just because you can't create a perfect system, doesn't mean it shouldn't be constantly enhanced to make it harder to exploit. It all starts with standardizing and streamlining processes and eliminating loopholes when found. Incorporate monitoring said processes for compliance and enforcement. Set base penalties high enough that even if settled, all possible gains (monetary or otherwise) are eliminated.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 3,116]

>Software companies do this all the time. As new vulnerabilities are discovered, they
>make updates to eliminate them.

Yes. And does the fact that vulnerabilities exist mean that the software company, rather than the hacker, is to blame for the hacker's crimes? Or even that they both share legal responsibility?

>It's the offender, and the system.

No, it's the offender. Period.

>Just because you can't create a perfect system,
>doesn't mean it shouldn't be constantly enhanced to make it harder to exploit.

Sure, and we do that everywhere. The Skyhook is an improvement over the RSL. It's still wrong to blame the RSL for someone who dies after cutting away at 100 feet.

[lawrocket 3]

Look. Here's the thing bill.
Step 1: take money from people to give away to others
Step 2: announce that there's money being given away
Step 3: whomever presents the "most compelling case" gets the money
Step 4: give money to people
Step 5: criticize those people who accepted the money.

Am I wrong for criticizing steps one through four? I personally think that starting with step 1 may be the easiest solution. Or how about Step 3. Maybe especially Step 3.

Here's the thing: how do yoy prevent step 5? Maybe by looking at steps 1 through 4.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[weekender 0]

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This is not an easy discussion
For one the same people who are committing some of these financial crimes are those who are holding our future retirements hostage.


Perhaps we can limit the immunity these guys have by maybe bringing back pension funds? Then we can treat a crime as a crime and if need be throw a few of these well to do folks on death row for their premeditated greed.


Look don't get me wrong here every one is entitled to make a living and doing well based on their hard work. But theft is theft. And that's just not right.

Just my thoughts. And again by no means is this an easythi g to talk about.

How are they holding your retirement funds hostage? If you are not happy with a bank or fund manager, you are free to take the money. you can invest it yourself or sit on it. No one forces you to give a bank or fund money. Can you explain what you meant by your comment?

How would bringing back pension funds do anything? Who do you think the largest customers of banks are? Institutions, including pension funds. Ever hear of Calpers or Calsters? they are two of the largest funds in the world. They are also two of the biggest customers of the banks in the world. i dont follow your logic.

Shah, does your school have a financial/trading lab? they are common now. they deconstruct how the financial markets work and explain how they are all tied together in a practical hands on way. I helped set one up at my alma mater. You should look into it because your comments make me believe you dont fully understand the industry. sorry if that sounds condecending, not my intent.

for the record, i think anyone who commits a crime should be prosecuted, including bankers.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante