Violent crime Vs. Financial crime

[shah269 0]

I was speaking with a friend who is not from the US the other day.
And for the life of us we can't figure out why in the US financial crimes are treated with kids gloves?

If you kill a person and it's premeditated we fry you.
However if you kill thousands of peoples hopes for a viable future due to stealing from them....you get what Madoff got...a nice comfy place to spend the rest of your life while your snot nosed kids enjoy what you stole?

How is this possible?

Would maybe gassing or frying a few dozen financial criminals on live TV change the culture of our financial system?

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[quade 4]

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Would maybe gassing or frying a few dozen financial criminals on live TV change the culture of our financial system?

I've often wondered that myself.

Trillions of dollars lost, millions of lives disrupted and I can't think of a single person that was even jailed for this last financial crisis of mismanagement.

In some other cultures, the perps would have killed themselves. Here, they not only don't get charged, they get bonuses paid for by government bail outs.

It makes no sense.

Yet, see what happens if you're a person of color that gets caught with a few rocks in your pocket.

Stupid.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[shah269 0]

The old dictator of Iran, The Shah, was a total nutter.

But there are stories of him hanging entire families of corrupt business people for stealing from his subjects.

I don't think that would be a good idea but heck look at Maydof? He is where? And his kid offed himself so that his family could keep all that money?

And i'm not talking a few $$ we are talking enough money to keep the family going for another 100 years!

All off the blood of people who trusted him and now are better off dead?

I don't know to me it sounds like a capital crime.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I was speaking with a friend who is not from the US the other day.
And for the life of us we can't figure out why in the US financial crimes are treated with kids gloves?

The sorts of people who commit the largest crimes are also the sorts of people paying to get congress people elected.

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Would maybe gassing or frying a few dozen financial criminals on live TV change the culture of our financial system?

No. They believe they're better than the rest of us, the rules shouldn't apply, and they're not going to get caught.

The worst executives I've worked with

1. Were psychopaths (as in suffering from Anti-Social Personality Disorder not in a metaphorical sense). They faked empathy rather than feeling it, didn't care what they did to other people, were described by co-workers as "the best liar I've ever met," etc.

2. Had a bad case of hubris. They felt that they were above everyone else, that accepted processes and rules didn't apply to them, that they aren't going to get caught, etc.

One just got done serving a 6-7 year federal prison term for applying the same attitude in his sex life that he used for his corner office job.

[jimmytavino 16]

i don't think i'd be in favor of televised mass gassing...
or frying... BUT You ARE imaginative Shah269...

i would favor prosecution and both jailtime and restitution payments...


hell we can "garnish" the wages of some poor bastard who's lucky to have a job. and who might be simply trying to pay his rent.... IF the EX screams that the guy is "behind on child support"...

so how about garnishing some offshore accounts, or Direct WITHDRAWAL from the bloated accounts of certain 'money managers' when their management techniques are un lawful or when their way of "doing business" takes Dollar$ from investors pockets, and puts them into their own pocket$...
Nobody has been watching the henHouse...like for the last 40 years!!!!!!

[kelpdiver 2]

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Would maybe gassing or frying a few dozen financial criminals on live TV change the culture of our financial system?

gassing Madoff in 20 years (presuming he is still alive) won't likely have the deterrent effect you desire. Part of the reason the death penalty doesn't really work well.

Capital punishment is only used in a very narrow set of circumstances. Adding it for crimes of personal interest isn't a good approach. It's also been proposed for rapists and child molesters, and soon we'll rival China and banana republics. (but with a 10-20 year delay)

[shah269 0]

Last I knew premeditated murder was in many states a capital crime.
It can be argued that financial murder of peoples financial futures is premeditated.

As such if a financial crime is premeditated we prosecute the individuals we give them due process we give them their day in court....and then we put them on death row.

Let's be 100% honest these crooks are much smarter than the low end people we hire at the government. After all which smart kid wakes up and dreams of being a government investigator? Not many if any! And between the total lack of respect and the piss poor compensation only those that can't land the good jobs in large companies go off and work for the feds. Thus any of the money that was stolen will never be recovered. These guys are just too smart and know how to hide money a little too well.

So you will never get your money back.
So let's take away the only thing they have, their life.

You murdered the future of thousands? Please let us introduce you to the gallows. Maybe if we hung a few of these people on live TV they would reconsider their actions an reign in their greed to stay on the right side of the law. Much like the rest of us have to do when we live our lives.


But it's funny...here in the US....we seem to give these guys a free pass. Or we send them off to live a comfortable life in a state prison. And the money they stole is passed on to their kids and their kids kids thus propitiating the logic "Sure I may take the fall but for the rest of time my family will do well, thus the risk is worth the reward."

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[StreetScooby 5]

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I don't know to me it sounds like a capital crime.

Does anyone else see the irony in this?

We are all engines of karma

[shah269 0]

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I don't know to me it sounds like a capital crime.

Does anyone else see the irony in this?

I did

It's funny, many seem to draw a strong distinction that it is ok to steal a person's future but it is not ok to take their lives.

For me i see no difference.
Some of the victims of these financial crimes are effectively better off dead with respect to how badly they were hit.

As such why not make some financial crimes punished by the death penalty

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[kallend 2,113]

There's clearly something wrong when some petty shoplifter gets a sentence harsher than a guy who destroys the life savings of thousands.

But that's what you get when the rich folks buy the lawmakers.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Bolas 5]

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These guys are just too smart and know how to hide money a little too well.

So you will never get your money back.

Bullshit. That's exactly what the focus should be. In Madoff's and similar cases freeze and sell off ALL assets of him, his family, partners, as well as all profits from anyone who proffited, whether they knew what was going on or not. Any future assets would then be scrutinized and any deemed gifts or from previously unknown sources would be seized. Only newly earned money would be allowed.

Jailtime is not really a concern for these people. Financial and status ruinment of all involved and seizure of all profits is far better justice and does not cost taxpayers additional money.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[shah269 0]

Bolas

That is the problem.
These guys are very smart. Most of the money they took will never be found.

Our guys on the government side are just not smart as they are so the money is for a lack of a better word gone forever.

Or better yet, remember the CEO of Enron?
Well he offed himself so that way the money his family had could not be pulled back.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[weekender 0]

can you be specific? your making general statements about criminals getting less time over other criminals. I'm talking actual criminals convicted of actual crimes by breaking actual laws.

i know a few who did not get light sentences.

The man who ran the Galleon fund, Raj, was given a nearly life sentence for insider trading.

yesterday Allen Sanford was convicted of a ponzi scheme. max sentence is 230 years and most expect him to get at least 20yrs

Kozloski(sp) from Tyco was convicted of numerous violations. serving 8.5-20yrs

Madoff got life

they all deserved what they got. I dont like cheaters it ruins the confidence of the market but those are not light sentences.

So enlighten me, specifically who was convicted of a major securities crime and got a light sentence. I'd prefer an example of one where there is a clear victim also, like Madoff and Sandford.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[weekender 0]

>If you kill a person and it's premeditated we fry you.
However if you kill thousands of peoples hopes for a viable future due to stealing from them....you get what Madoff got...a nice comfy place to spend the rest of your life while your snot nosed kids enjoy what you stole?

for the record, your completely wrong here. His children got none of his money. it was all seized. One of his son's committed suicide. So either you do not know what your talking about or you are a liar. either way, pretty lame

I am not a defender of Madoff or any criminals, fyi. I just prefer people make their arguments with facts and not hyperbole and lies.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[billvon 3,085]

>If you kill a person and it's premeditated we fry you.

Right.

>However if you kill thousands of peoples hopes for a viable future . . .

Oh please. You could clam that for anything.

"When NASA cancelled the Constellation program the hopes and dreams of thousands of aspiring astronauts, aerospace workers and space enthusiasts were murdered."

"When they didn't approve my mortgage my dreams of a safe home for my family were killed. I died inside."

"When I got fired and couldn't send my child to college his future died right there in front of me."

Losing hope, money, future employment or a house is nothing like murder. Confusing the two is is a first world conceit, generally made by people who have never been exposed to what murder or violent crime does to someone.

[shah269 0]

Life is nice.
But I think since it was premeditated murder of peoples futures and livelihood that it should be a federal law which mandates that it be capital crime.

And it's the general consensus that the funds which these intelligent men (why does it seem it's all guys) stole will never fully be recovered. Much like the damage done by a murder of a loved one.

Hence, why should these guys get life time in a heated, well lit, safe federal penitentiary eating three square meals a day and getting free federal health care?
I don't want these folks to live long lives on my tax money. The same way i don't want cop killers or other violent offenders to do the same either (i'm pro capical punnishment)

While those they hurt may not even have the money to eat every day let alone enough for a warm bead to sleep in at night?

So why not treat financial crime as we do violent crime? If it's premeditated and of a given scope, they are given a fair and open trial judged by their peers and then when it's sentencing time it's automatically becomes the death sentence. Simple as that?

sarbanes oxley act was nice, but it needs to be pushed further.

We need to as a society start understanding that financial crimes against people is of equal severity as violent crimes. Too many good folks have been put in a position that they are better off dead by others premeditated violent greed.

The victims may never be whole but perhaps they can rest better at night knowing that those who have wronged them are not sleeping in a comfortable state funded facility with full bellies and their families enjoying the benefits of their plunder?

The truly funny part in this argument is that thanks to the supreme court, companies can now be viewed as individuals. And as such perhaps it could be argued that an institution could be brought up on charges that may qualify for the death penalty. And since the CEO is the company, would he or she pay for the companies actions and be put to death?

I'm sure teh CEO of Exxon and BP are glad that they are not responsible for the companies actions!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[lawrocket 3]

As an attorney, I often laugh at the mental inadequacy of a number of people. Such as bank robbers.


You’ll get some dude that commits a bank robbery and gets away with a couple of thousand dollars. For that, the perp is charged with breaking and entering, armed robbery, assault with a deadly weapon, firearms enhancements, making terroristic threats, etc. If anybody is physically injured, ho ho!!! The perp will face federal charges, get sent to a maximum security federal prison as a violent offender, and not get paroled because the feds don’t parol violent offenders. He might be able to plea down to a 10 or 12 year sentence from a guaranteed 20-plus year stretch.

Meanwhile, the guy could have just committed check fraud, come out with hundred of thousands, and get a sentence of partial restitution and a 2 or 3 year sentence with parol and probable early release as a non-violent offender.

Why the hell people are still robbing banks is mind boggling.

Note: I am certainly not advising people to commit check fraud.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,113]

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Note: I am certainly not advising people to commit check fraud.

Nope, even more lucrative and less hazardous to become a banker and take government bailout money.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[weekender 0]

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Note: I am certainly not advising people to commit check fraud.

Nope, even more lucrative and less hazardous to become a banker and take government bailout money.

its not hazardous because its not a crime, duh. also, all the bailout money was payed back with interest so you can sleep better now.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[shah269 0]

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Meanwhile, the guy could have just committed check fraud, come out with hundred of thousands, and get a sentence of partial restitution and a 2 or 3 year sentence with parol and probable early release as a non-violent offender.

Is that true Law?
Really!
WOW!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[kallend 2,113]

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Note: I am certainly not advising people to commit check fraud.

Nope, even more lucrative and less hazardous to become a banker and take government bailout money.

its not hazardous because its not a crime, duh. also, all the bailout money was payed back with interest so you can sleep better now.

finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/03/07/treasury-aig-42-billion/?section=magazines_fortune

articles.cnn.com/2009-03-15/us/AIG.banks.list_1_aig-federal-bailout-money-bonuses-and-compensation?_s=PM:US

Oh yes.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Note: I am certainly not advising people to commit check fraud.

Nope, even more lucrative and less hazardous to become a banker and take government bailout money.

its not hazardous because its not a crime, duh. also, all the bailout money was payed back with interest so you can sleep better now.

finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/03/07/treasury-aig-42-billion/?section=magazines_fortune

articles.cnn.com/2009-03-15/us/AIG.banks.list_1_aig-federal-bailout-money-bonuses-and-compensation?_s=PM:US

Oh yes.

You got one company, AIG, which is more accurate described as an insurance company, not a banker. At this point the Feds own 36B$ worth of shares with an average cost of $28.50/share. Today AIG closed at 28.31 - or 99.33% of the cost basis, ignoring any possible gains this 6B sale might have generated. That's an unrealized loss of ~700M... The article is correct in noting that this is a fairly illiquid block of stock, but it's a bit early to cry about that level of paper loss out of a $700B bailout.

[kallend 2,113]

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Note: I am certainly not advising people to commit check fraud.

Nope, even more lucrative and less hazardous to become a banker and take government bailout money.

its not hazardous because its not a crime, duh. also, all the bailout money was payed back with interest so you can sleep better now.

finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/03/07/treasury-aig-42-billion/?section=magazines_fortune

articles.cnn.com/2009-03-15/us/AIG.banks.list_1_aig-federal-bailout-money-bonuses-and-compensation?_s=PM:US

Oh yes.

You got one company, AIG, which is more accurate described as an insurance company, not a banker.

AIG's bailout mostly went to cover the losses of BANKS, as detailed in the link.

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At this point the Feds own 36B$ worth of shares with an average cost of $28.50/share. Today AIG closed at 28.31 - or 99.33% of the cost basis, ignoring any possible gains this 6B sale might have generated. That's an unrealized loss of ~700M... The article is correct in noting that this is a fairly illiquid block of stock, but it's a bit early to cry about that level of paper loss out of a $700B bailout.

FACT - ALL THE BAILOUT MONEY HAS NOT BEEN PAID BACK WITH INTEREST.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[weekender 0]

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Note: I am certainly not advising people to commit check fraud.

Nope, even more lucrative and less hazardous to become a banker and take government bailout money.

its not hazardous because its not a crime, duh. also, all the bailout money was payed back with interest so you can sleep better now.

finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/03/07/treasury-aig-42-billion/?section=magazines_fortune

articles.cnn.com/2009-03-15/us/AIG.banks.list_1_aig-federal-bailout-money-bonuses-and-compensation?_s=PM:US

Oh yes.

You got one company, AIG, which is more accurate described as an insurance company, not a banker.

AIG's bailout mostly went to cover the losses of BANKS, as detailed in the link.

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At this point the Feds own 36B$ worth of shares with an average cost of $28.50/share. Today AIG closed at 28.31 - or 99.33% of the cost basis, ignoring any possible gains this 6B sale might have generated. That's an unrealized loss of ~700M... The article is correct in noting that this is a fairly illiquid block of stock, but it's a bit early to cry about that level of paper loss out of a $700B bailout.

FACT - ALL THE BAILOUT MONEY HAS NOT BEEN PAID BACK WITH INTEREST.

I dont dissagree with your "FACT" nor was my reply intended too. you highlighted one sentence from my post which does not show the context for which it was intended. i was responding to your post about bankers and crime. my response was intended to imply the banks paid back their bailout money and did not commit a crime. if it was unclear, i apologize and hopefully it is now. I going to take the high road and assume you were not purposely highlighting the one sentence to be misleading.

as to AIG, i also agree with the other gentleman that AIG is an insurance company and not a bank. they payed out the money to their customers who were due, including the banks.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[lawrocket 3]

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Note: I am certainly not advising people to commit check fraud.

Nope, even more lucrative and less hazardous to become a banker and take government bailout money.

Or have an even more lucrative job as the politician or bureaucrat who takes kallend's money and gives it to bankers, in exchange for a contribution commensurate with the assistance...

My wife is hotter than your wife.