Grandfather Gets Arrested for Holding Burglar at Gunpoint While Waiting for Police to Arrive

[mnealtx 0]

Shooting the guy would definitely have been a mistake - I agree with you on that point.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[MikeJD 0]

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Whose hands does the law belong in if not the hands of the people?

It belongs in the hands of those elected by the people to maintain and enforce it.

[Marinus 0]

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This is a guy I would like to have living next door to me.

I would prefer someone who understands that warning shots should be fired in the air, because he understands the that it's less dangerous than firing them into the ground. I would hate to be killed by a lame-brain who doesn't understand the word "ricochet"

Edit: straight into the air that is, under an angle the bullet is much more likely to impact at lethal speeds.

[mnealtx 0]

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This is a guy I would like to have living next door to me.

I would prefer someone who understands that warning shots should be fired in the air, because he understands the that it's less dangerous than firing them into the ground. I would hate to be killed by a lame-brain who doesn't understand the word "ricochet"

Edit: straight into the air that is, under an angle the bullet is much more likely to impact at lethal speeds.

A warning shot shouldn't have been fired at all, but if it must, it is a greater danger being fired into the air than into the ground (concrete excluded).

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[riddler 0]

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A lot of those folks seem to prefer to have more victims, rather than more people acting to save others. So just look the other way and pretend it's not happening, don't get involved, and mind your own business!

I think the concept is to use your telephone like a weapon, and call the police. Sadly, the police are so under-funded that your neighbor might be dead by the time they get there.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[christelsabine 1]

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"people should not take the law into their own hands"

This is the phrase that always gets me. Whose hands does the law belong in if not the hands of the people?

Woah! Where did you live that last 200+ yrs??

Every single one of your *people* has its own idea about handling the law, where would you draw the line?

What a stupid comment. I'm speechless.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[skypuppy 1]

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If you see someone climbing out of the neighbor's window, wouldn't that be breaking and entering, at the least?

Hmmm, couldn't that also be breaking out and escaping? Or a wife's lover leaving after he hears the husband coming though the front door?

I'll admit the odds are in favor of the other, but wouldn't it suck to finally escape the clutches of Jeffery Dalmer only to be held at gun point outside his house by the confused grandpa next door? Meanwhile, Jeffy's still pretty hungry.

You say that like it's funny, and yet when one young guy did escape from Dahmer and make it out onto the street - naked - the cops took him back up to Dahmer's apartment where they were convinced by Dahmer that it was indeed a domestic spat, and left the guy with him to be eaten.

That's not so funny.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[quade 4]

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If you see someone climbing out of the neighbor's window, wouldn't that be breaking and entering, at the least?

Hmmm, couldn't that also be breaking out and escaping? Or a wife's lover leaving after he hears the husband coming though the front door?

I'll admit the odds are in favor of the other, but wouldn't it suck to finally escape the clutches of Jeffery Dalmer only to be held at gun point outside his house by the confused grandpa next door? Meanwhile, Jeffy's still pretty hungry.

You say that like it's funny, and yet when one young guy did escape from Dahmer and make it out onto the street - naked - the cops took him back up to Dahmer's apartment where they were convinced by Dahmer that it was indeed a domestic spat, and left the guy with him to be eaten.

That's not so funny.

Exactly.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[devildog 0]

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If you see someone climbing out of the neighbor's window, wouldn't that be breaking and entering, at the least?

Hmmm, couldn't that also be breaking out and escaping? Or a wife's lover leaving after he hears the husband coming though the front door?

I'll admit the odds are in favor of the other, but wouldn't it suck to finally escape the clutches of Jeffery Dalmer only to be held at gun point outside his house by the confused grandpa next door? Meanwhile, Jeffy's still pretty hungry.

You say that like it's funny, and yet when one young guy did escape from Dahmer and make it out onto the street - naked - the cops took him back up to Dahmer's apartment where they were convinced by Dahmer that it was indeed a domestic spat, and left the guy with him to be eaten.

That's not so funny.

Lesson there is, if the cops dont believe you and are about to leave you with Hannibal, punch a cop in the face so you go to jail.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[skypuppy 1]

frankly you lost me here. The guy would probably have been way better off with gun-toting grandad or granny than he was with the cops anyways. So you pretty much lost your own argument.

Even if he'd been accidently shot while escaping dahmer it'd have been a better way to go then what happened.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[kallend 2,182]

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If you see someone climbing out of the neighbor's window, wouldn't that be breaking and entering, at the least?

Not necessarily. Could be a work man, window cleaner - there could be all sorts of legitimate reasons.

You're stretching, Tone.

This was a Saturday *night*, not middle of the day during the week. The homeowner discovers *his* house burgled and someone climbing out of his neighbor's window.

Coulda' been his neighbor's wife's lover making an escape from the husband. Or the daughter's boyfriend escaping from Dad. ASSuming is a poor reason for taking potshots.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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If you see someone climbing out of the neighbor's window, wouldn't that be breaking and entering, at the least?

Not necessarily. Could be a work man, window cleaner - there could be all sorts of legitimate reasons.

You're stretching, Tone.

This was a Saturday *night*, not middle of the day during the week. The homeowner discovers *his* house burgled and someone climbing out of his neighbor's window.

Coulda' been his neighbor's wife's lover making an escape from the husband. Or the daughter's boyfriend escaping from Dad. ASSuming is a poor reason for taking potshots.

Speaking of ASSuming, no 'potshots' were taken.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[regulator 0]

Lesson there is, if the cops dont believe you and are about to leave you with Hannibal, punch a cop in the face so you go to jail.

This is a fantastic point...I do think if that young asian man had done that exact thing he could still be on this planet.

[Bertt 0]

You might be speechless, but apparently German law speaks to the subject. You can check if this reference is valid:

Citizen's arrests can be made under §127 StPO (code of penal procedures) if the arrestee is caught in flagrante delicto and either the identity of the person cannot be otherwise established immediately or he/she is suspected to try to flee. The person making the arrest is allowed to hold the arrestee solely for the purpose of turning him over to a proper legal authority such as the police. German law does not establish that the crime has to be serious, nor that the person making the arrest has to actually be a citizen of Germany.

I don't know what German law says about using a gun in these circumstances.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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Lesson there is, if the cops dont believe you and are about to leave you with Hannibal, punch a cop in the face so you go to jail.

This is a fantastic point...I do think if that young asian man had done that exact thing he could still be on this planet.

The young asian man (he was actually a teenager) had been heavily drugged and a hole had been drilled into his head. He was barely capable of getting out of the apartment and was not capable of walking away, let alone punching the cops.

And Dahmer was very persuasive and charming.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[christelsabine 1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Any_person_arrest#Germany

That's what you found at Wiki. It's just an excerpt of § 127 Abs. 1 StPO. I think, much more you referred to § 80 Abs. 2 StPO.

As we are a disarmed nation, the above rarely is done at gun point

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Whose hands does the law belong in if not the hands of the people?

Anyhow, my reply to your above question was not going into that direction.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[kallend 2,182]

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Lesson there is, if the cops dont believe you and are about to leave you with Hannibal, punch a cop in the face so you go to jail.

This is a fantastic point...I do think if that young asian man had done that exact thing he could still be on this planet.

The young asian man (he was actually a teenager) had been heavily drugged and a hole had been drilled into his head. He was barely capable of getting out of the apartment and was not capable of walking away, let alone punching the cops.

And Dahmer was very persuasive and charming.

A Wisconsin thing, right?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[quade 4]

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Lesson there is, if the cops dont believe you and are about to leave you with Hannibal, punch a cop in the face so you go to jail.
This is a fantastic point...I do think if that young asian man had done that exact thing he could still be on this planet.

The young asian man (he was actually a teenager) had been heavily drugged and a hole had been drilled into his head. He was barely capable of getting out of the apartment and was not capable of walking away, let alone punching the cops.
And Dahmer was very persuasive and charming.

A Wisconsin thing, right?

Nawww, people from Wisconsin aren't charming. They just badger people until they get their way.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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Lesson there is, if the cops dont believe you and are about to leave you with Hannibal, punch a cop in the face so you go to jail.

This is a fantastic point...I do think if that young asian man had done that exact thing he could still be on this planet.

The young asian man (he was actually a teenager) had been heavily drugged and a hole had been drilled into his head. He was barely capable of getting out of the apartment and was not capable of walking away, let alone punching the cops.

And Dahmer was very persuasive and charming.

A Wisconsin thing, right?

Well, we had Ed Gein too.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[steve1 5]

This is kind of a bizzar story, but true.

I knew a guy that was a cop. He was also an avid hunter. When he was on patrol he often drove county roads, looking for deer.

Then he got the idea of sitting in a tree stand, while on duty, with his police ear phone in. This was quiet and wouldn't scare the deer. He was trying to get a big buck with his bow....If he had a call he would quickly get back into uniform and try to get to the crime scene in time.

So, one day there's a burglar in a farmer's house. The farmer called the police and nobody shows up. He has the guy at gun point. They waited and waited for this ding dong cop to show up....Finally the farmer decides to tie the guy up.

An hour or more, later this cop finally shows up. The burglar is hog tied in their living room.

This cop finally quit and moved on to greener pastures. I'm surprised this poor farmer wasn't charged with something....

[Andy9o8 3]

Both the headline and the description are misleading as to (and therefore sensationalizing) the facts. He wasn't "arrested for holding a burglar at gunpoint", nor was he "arrested for not letting a criminal escape". He wasn't charged with, for example, unlawful restraint. He was charged with reckless conduct, however not for holding the suspect at gunpoint, but for firing that shot into the ground.

Even with jursidictional differences, there is neither universal license allowing, nor universal prohibition against, a civilian discharging a lawfully possessed firearm in the course of stopping a crime or making a citizen's arrest. Sometimes it is legally justified as reasonable and/or necessary, and sometimes it is not. When it is not, the civilian runs the risk of being charged with reckless endangerment of innocent bystanders.

There is a huge gray area, as well as a lot of room for the exercise of official discretion. The police may or may not have discretion on whether to arrest, depending on the facts. The prosecutor then has the discretion on whether or not to charge in court (which, at the time of the article, seemed to have been an unresolved question). If it goes to trial, then a jury will decide whether firing that shot was justified or unreasonably placed bystanders at undue risk.

These things are best analyzed with the head, and not the heart. Sensationalized headlines and spinning the facts like this are tools of the heart.