Do we reward bad behavior?

[shah269 0]

Do we reward bad behavior?
A group of friends and I were thinking today? Are we our own worst enemies?
We are caught between a rock and a hard place.
On one hand we want relatively cheap goods and we want our investments to grow .

On the other what we want causes businesses to move research/development and production out of the US and into say China and SEA where labor is cheap such that
1) The companies provide us cheap products and
2) Said cheap products produced at lower rates contain greater margins thus growing our investments.

so is there a logical way out of this predicament?

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[wmw999 2,587]

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so is there a logical way out of this predicament?

Buy less stuff, and expect to pay more for it. Just like people did for all the years before we started exporting manufacturing to other countries.

In the 1960's they used to talk about how many weeks' work it took for an American (vs a Russian in those days, of course) to buy a TV and other major appliances.

You can buy one for less than a week's salary now in many cases, because they're not manufactured on the same wage scale as they're bought.

So buy less, think more about what you're buying, and buy US-made goods. Yes, you'll pay more, but that's definitely a direct way to benefit the US economy.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[shah269 0]

Wendy but if we did that then the economy would slow down via a decline in our GDP as well as the amount of taxes collected.
That in itself will then cause other problems.

It kind of reminds me of a heroin addict. The more we have the more we need to stay "normal"?
And to have "more" we reward CEO's who export jobs and treat people in SEA like slaves and pollute the air and water.

Just so we can have cheap yet functional products?

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[BIGUN 1,483]

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Do we reward bad behavior?
A group of friends and I were thinking today? Are we our own worst enemies?
We are caught between a rock and a hard place.
On one hand we want relatively cheap goods and we want our investments to grow .

On the other what we want causes businesses to move research/development and production out of the US and into say China and SEA where labor is cheap such that
1) The companies provide us cheap products and
2) Said cheap products produced at lower rates contain greater margins thus growing our investments.

so is there a logical way out of this predicament?

Sure. You can make a short sale on certain Chinese Industries.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[shah269 0]

Just look south of China in SEA and if that's too expensive look at Africa...we will always find cheap labor....so that we may have high end products at low costs while also improving our investments?

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[billvon 3,111]

>Wendy but if we did that then the economy would slow down via a decline in our
>GDP as well as the amount of taxes collected. That in itself will then cause other
>problems.

Yes. If we want to keep jobs here, where minimum wages are very high, we will have to spend more to get less stuff, and that will slow the growth of our economy. There's no free lunch. We may have to accept that a ~3% growth in GDP a year is not sustainable in the long run.

[winsor 236]

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>Wendy but if we did that then the economy would slow down via a decline in our
>GDP as well as the amount of taxes collected. That in itself will then cause other
>problems.

Yes. If we want to keep jobs here, where minimum wages are very high, we will have to spend more to get less stuff, and that will slow the growth of our economy. There's no free lunch. We may have to accept that a ~3% growth in GDP a year is not sustainable in the long run.

Given that any of our economic models seem to base "success" upon some amount of continuous growth, it seems like Oncology should be a be requisite for a course of study in Economics.

[pirana 0]

There is no way out - other than isolation, and that seems very unlikely.

We are experiencing the darker side of globalization of labor. It's been a slow build-up since the 50's, really kicking in big since the 70's, and now in full gear. There is no way we can compete overall with the current cost of overseas labor. Our economy is going to be very tight until the playing field levels again. It's hard to say how long that will take (everybody's guess is just that - a guess); but this amatuer economist says at least 2 to 3 decades.

Lots of factors could lengthen that, very few could shorten it. Additional developing economies (there is a lot of untapped labor out there) will almost certainly come into play adding to competition. Catastrophic events (such as wars, famines, natural disasters) could take some players out.

I've heard some point to a solution being to do something that nobody else does, or does much of, or does well. IMO, in our world of copycat technology, such solutions are temporary at best - but probably still worth doing. The other problem with relying on technology so much (other than the fact it always gets copied) is that it is no longer directly linked to production. Being super-duper at high tech is great for providing the world with innovation, but means nothing for 10's of millions of workers if the bulk of the production goes overseas.

So basically, unless we want to isolate ourselves, or go back to being an imperial power raping undeveloped states of their resources - this is the way it's gonna be for a good while. It is no secret we've been heading this direction since about the late 70's, but between the inevitability of it, the fact that capital's interests are not the same as labor, and our leadership's reluctance to be honest - it was and continues to be largely ignored.

It'll be amusing to watch the White house change hands the next few times, as the parties point fingers and claim to be able so save us from ourselves. It'll be even more amusing when they realize they can't do a thing about it, yet still continue to point to the other party.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[shah269 0]

I have to agree. The future does not look very good at all for the next 30 odd years.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[aarco 0]

Cheap is a matterial trades plot - designed to gain investments towards recycling tech - study the timing and you will find the trind showing up just like a schedule- big buisness - is a title - does not mean - the acting people are actualy a part of a BIG busness - aspecialy if the federal Gov shuts them down - If you look at the start of the Soviet time frame - most wronges were being called rights - size was being called wisdom - and weapon was the sub contole command in the mind spoken as rightouse - people got killed because thats the way things are - people across the nations said - its not our fault - "so don't get involved" - Doc's lie to patients in America - they say to the media - there is no cuer there is no - answer - - but secretly there is a answer - there is a drug that works - it is real - and it does last - chemicaly balanced to leave zero trace of any pain - or lie - no more feelings of wrong attitudes - simply perfect

Having something never beats doing (>|<)
Iam building things - Iam working on my mind- I am going to change this world - its what I came here 4- - -

[pirana 0]

One more word on this. The long term health of our own economy (USA) is largely dependent on human rights advances in developing countries. As their freedoms and standard of living are allowed to rise, the playing field levels.

So if you're looking for a cause, basic human rights is a great place to start.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[shah269 0]

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One more word on this. The long term health of our own economy (USA) is largely dependent on human rights advances in developing countries. As their freedoms and standard of living are allowed to rise, the playing field levels.

So if you're looking for a cause, basic human rights is a great place to start.

Yes I agree...but are you willing to pay $10 / lb of coffee and $1k for an Ipod in the name of human rights?

are you willing to live with a flat 401k that never grows?

We want cheap products and a retirement fund that will allow us to live well.

And thus we need cheap labor....which then takes away our jobs.....

No matter how you cut it...not good!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[Southern_Man 0]

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Yes I agree...but are you willing to pay $10 / lb of coffee

I pretty much already pay that in the grocery store.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[hcsvader 1]

Funny thing is most of the locals I met in SEA seem to be a lot happier with thier life than you are even tho you say you have a job that pays 100k/yr

Maybe if your priority was just making enough money to pay for "somewhere" to sleep at night having enough food to eat life would be a lot easier for you as well.

If all you had to pay for in life was a hammock and a mosquito net for a place to sleep and some rice and veggies for food every day the cost of labour would be a hell of a lot cheaper. Instead you want to have some flash condo, eat steak everyday and drive a BMW.

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[pirana 0]

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One more word on this. The long term health of our own economy (USA) is largely dependent on human rights advances in developing countries. As their freedoms and standard of living are allowed to rise, the playing field levels.

So if you're looking for a cause, basic human rights is a great place to start.

Yes I agree...but are you willing to pay $10 / lb of coffee and $1k for an Ipod in the name of human rights?

are you willing to live with a flat 401k that never grows?

We want cheap products and a retirement fund that will allow us to live well.

And thus we need cheap labor....which then takes away our jobs.....

No matter how you cut it...not good!

You've answered your own question. Wanting everything, wanting it now, wanting it cheap, then wanting it all over again next month (or next year) when the newest version is available IS the problem.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[marks2065 0]

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One more word on this. The long term health of our own economy (USA) is largely dependent on human rights advances in developing countries. As their freedoms and standard of living are allowed to rise, the playing field levels.

So if you're looking for a cause, basic human rights is a great place to start.

Yes I agree...but are you willing to pay $10 / lb of coffee and $1k for an Ipod in the name of human rights?

are you willing to live with a flat 401k that never grows?

We want cheap products and a retirement fund that will allow us to live well.

And thus we need cheap labor....which then takes away our jobs.....

No matter how you cut it...not good!

funny thing how spoiled you are and how much you whine about things, I was watching a show about Munbai India the other day and a fact that I thought was startleing was that 40% of the people in the 2nd largest city in India don't even have running water. You complain about how the rich owe you and the bankers are thiefs and how corrupt capitalism is, but you can't seem to understand that the rich and capitalism has provided the very things that millions don't have in one city.
I think it is time for you to start to appreciate the simple things you do receive thank to the rich people that pay millions every year to provide the basic life altering services that almost a billion people don't even have.

[Tuna-Salad 0]

Of course we reward bad behavior.. Look at how the banks fucked over millions of people and were then given money which went to executives in forms of large bonuses. Just one example..

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[shah269 0]

Wow thanks for the personal attacks .... no really!

The "we" in the question is us in the US and the EU.

As in WE as a society, do WE reward bad behavior of our corporate leaders?

Now if you are going to go off and personally attack me,,,,please go fuck yourself!

Tuna-Salad, not you brother i'm just clicking reply to all.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[billvon 3,111]

Marks, Shah - enough. Your one warning.