jgoose71 0 #1 January 21, 2012 Was searching for the end of the internet and I came across the "Corruption Perception index" by Transparency international. I'm Using the Wikepedia Link because it requires less clicking and down loading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index I've noticed that we have fallen behind such countries as Ireland (Home of the IRA, creators of the Irish Car bomb) and Qatar (Middle east, nuff said) Also worth noting that in the last couple of years since Barrack Hussein Obama has become president, bringing his Chicago style politics to the white house, our CPI has dropped to new lows. An interesting read on the conditions that breed corruption (I know, also Wikepedia. But I can't dispute what is said): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_corruption Of particular interests are the definitions of "cronyism" and "unholy alliance"..... Obama promised to be a more open administration. Is it to you?"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #2 January 21, 2012 Quote Obama promised to be a more open administration. Is it to you? Racist!! Interesting page, though.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #3 January 21, 2012 I think we're just far more aware of it now. And polarized. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,595 #4 January 21, 2012 QuoteI've noticed that we have fallen behind such countries as Ireland (Home of the IRA, creators of the Irish Car bomb) Wrong country.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #5 January 21, 2012 Quote Quote Obama promised to be a more open administration. Is it to you? Racist!! Interesting page, though. I know, why are Obama's critics so dumb, right? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/17/newsweek-obama-dumb-cover_n_1210182.html When the media stops questioning our leaders, or fall lock step with them, maybe that might allow for corruption?"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #6 January 21, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Obama promised to be a more open administration. Is it to you? Racist!! Interesting page, though. I know, why are Obama's critics so dumb, right? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/17/newsweek-obama-dumb-cover_n_1210182.html When the media stops questioning our leaders, or fall lock step with them, maybe that might allow for corruption? Nice debunk of Sullivan's puff-piece,[url "http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/01/dear-andrew-sullivan-why-focus-on-obamas-dumbest-critics/251528/"]here[url].Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #7 January 21, 2012 Quote Quote I've noticed that we have fallen behind such countries as Ireland (Home of the IRA, creators of the Irish Car bomb) Wrong country. My bad, Northern Ireland, which is a part of the United Kingdom, Which still scored higher than the U.S."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #8 January 21, 2012 QuoteI think we're just far more aware of it now. And polarized. It's hard to Imagine how we could be less aware of it back then. According to the media, Bush could do nothing right. They salivated at the thought of crucifying him...."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,595 #9 January 21, 2012 Quote Quote Quote I've noticed that we have fallen behind such countries as Ireland (Home of the IRA, creators of the Irish Car bomb) Wrong country. My bad, Northern Ireland, which is a part of the United Kingdom, Which still scored higher than the U.S. Well, what does the IRA really have to do with UK corruption (misuse of public power for private benefit)? Corruption != anything bad. And tbh, you only came nearly last out of the first world nations, you still beat almost everyone else. And France, so that's something.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 380 #10 January 22, 2012 Before lending too much weight to this topic, it's instructive to consider the source. Here's something about "Transparency International", the source of the "Corruption Perceptions Index": "The Corruption Perceptions Index has received criticisms over the years. The main one stems from the difficulty in measuring corruption, which by definition happens behind the scenes. The Corruption Perceptions Index therefore needs to rely on third-party survey which have been criticized as potentially unreliable. Data can vary widely depending on the public perception of a country, the completeness of the surveys and the methodology used. The second issue is that data cannot be compared from year to year because Transparency International uses different methodologies and samples every year. This makes it difficult to evaluate the result of new policies.[7] The Corruption Perceptions Index authors replied to these criticisms by reminding that the Corruption Perceptions Index is meant to measure perception and not "reality". (Quote from here, underlining for emphasis done by me.) Note that even the authors of the index claim it measures perception, not reality. My take is that this is a result of politics becoming so polarized in this country. When Bush was in office, there were complaints of crony capitalism re Haliburton. With Obama in office, we see complaints from the other side of the aisle re Solyndra (as an example). The index measures smoke, not fire. Ask yourself this: when was the last time you had to pay a bribe to a government official get a business license, or a business contract, or anything? The countries with the best rating tend to be countries where people have a high degree of trust in the government in general (New Zealand, the Scandinavian countries). Look at the countries closer to the bottom of the list. Those are countries where you have to pay a bribe to be able to take a piss. Although things are not perfect in the US (consider Blagojevich), they are pretty clean over all. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #11 January 22, 2012 Entropy is alive and well even in the social and political realms.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #12 January 22, 2012 Corruption in the USA is actually a minor factor compared with abuse of the system. Most of the unethical behavior of our business and political leadership is within the law. The real problem is that a positive feedback loop has been established in which money buys influence, which is used to create a horribly biased system, which gets them more money, which buys more influence, which gets them more money, . . . . So, IMO, it's not that so many more laws are broken, it's that the system for creation and interpretation of those laws has been hijacked. It's not a behind-closed-doors conspiracy - it's right out in the open for all to see." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #13 January 22, 2012 Quote Ask yourself this: when was the last time you had to pay a bribe to a government official get a business license, or a business contract, or anything? This has now become an unending series of taxes...We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #14 January 22, 2012 Quote My take is that this is a result of politics becoming so polarized in this country. When Bush was in office, there were complaints of crony capitalism re Haliburton. With Obama in office, we see complaints from the other side of the aisle re Solyndra (as an example). The index measures smoke, not fire. Ask yourself this: when was the last time you had to pay a bribe to a government official get a business license, or a business contract, or anything? You are right in that they have to use "perception." Not everyone is forth coming with their corrupt dealings. but as the old saying goes, "where there is smoke, there is fire." While Bush and Obama both have there questionable dealings, Can you really name anything that Obama has done on the straight up and up? Obama care had the back room dealings with the drug companies, HMO's, and bribes to various states. The NLRB strong armed Boeing for a Union deal. You already mentioned Solyndra, and we haven't even started getting into his Czars or Eric Holder who is a train wreck by himself.... Quote The countries with the best rating tend to be countries where people have a high degree of trust in the government in general (New Zealand, the Scandinavian countries). Yes, and another thing those countries have in common is simple well established rules that allow ease of business. When was the last time they passed a law that was 2,000 pages long in the middle of the night that effected business on such a grand scale? Like Obamacare or the Dodd-Frank Finance reform bill? Heavy regulation like that creates black markets (see Greece) Quote Look at the countries closer to the bottom of the list. Those are countries where you have to pay a bribe to be able to take a piss. Although things are not perfect in the US (consider Blagojevich), they are pretty clean over all. Blagojevich is a great example. Chicago style politics has moved to the white house."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #15 January 22, 2012 Quote So, IMO, it's not that so many more laws are broken, it's that the system for creation and interpretation of those laws has been hijacked. It's not a behind-closed-doors conspiracy - it's right out in the open for all to see. Which goes back to easy, well established rules that everyone knows. Not 2,000 page monstrosities of leagaleeze.... but then again, our Obama couldn't even read the 14 page Arizona bill on illegal immigration....."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #16 January 22, 2012 Quote Quote Ask yourself this: when was the last time you had to pay a bribe to a government official get a business license, or a business contract, or anything? This has now become an unending series of taxes... When was the last time the government did anything good for a business that didn't have a lobbyist? Or gave a "campaign contribution?"You do realize that the reason Microsoft had all the antitrust law suits filed against them in the 90's was because they refused to spend money on campaign contributions and lobbyists, right? Lobbyist for other companies did though, and windows has never been the same....."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,595 #17 January 22, 2012 Quote Yes, and another thing those countries have in common is simple well established rules that allow ease of business. You've done a side by side comparison, have you? I don't know much about financial red-tape in Kiwi-land, but I do know that it has a comprehensive public healthcare system, just like the Scandinavians. I also know that if you were paying scandinavian levels of taxation you'd be screaming blue murder about strangulation of private enterprise and the economy. Be careful who you decide the US should be more like...Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #18 January 22, 2012 Quote Quote Yes, and another thing those countries have in common is simple well established rules that allow ease of business. You've done a side by side comparison, have you? I don't know much about financial red-tape in Kiwi-land, but I do know that it has a comprehensive public healthcare system, just like the Scandinavians. I also know that if you were paying scandinavian levels of taxation you'd be screaming blue murder about strangulation of private enterprise and the economy. Be careful who you decide the US should be more like... never said I wanted to be like them, just making a comparison..... Do you think any of the Scandinavian countries have passed any bills that are 2,000+ pages lately where there elected officials told them "We got to pass it to see what's in it?" So you think the Scandinavian countries have a better idea of what there taxes are going to be next year? Do I want what they got? No. But speaking frankly, right now I would much rather look like Sweden than Greece. I'm sure The the UK's tax codes right now are a little easier to understand than ours. If things keep going like this, I'm sure we will start seeing black markets emerge in the U.S. real soon. I already know a bunch of people that sneak across the borders to Canada and Mexico to pick up there meds....."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #19 January 22, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote Ask yourself this: when was the last time you had to pay a bribe to a government official get a business license, or a business contract, or anything? This has now become an unending series of taxes... What is your source? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #20 January 23, 2012 Quote I'm sure The the UK's tax codes right now are a little easier to understand than ours. This made me curious, so I read them both. Just finished. The Brits' one was harder to figger out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #21 January 23, 2012 QuoteQuote I'm sure The the UK's tax codes right now are a little easier to understand than ours. This made me curious, so I read them both. Just finished. The Brits' one was harder to figger out. 2 questions to ask: If you were to ask a brit, do you think he would say ours is harder to figure out? I mean, you were able to read their code and figure it out in an afternoon...... And have you figured out what Obama care is going to do to our taxes over the next couple of years? Its over 2000 pages. Could you figure that out in an afternoon?"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #22 January 23, 2012 QuoteQuote I'm sure The the UK's tax codes right now are a little easier to understand than ours. This made me curious, so I read them both. Just finished. The Brits' one was harder to figger out. Well, that's easy to understand. You don't speak British.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #23 January 23, 2012 Quote Its over 2000 pages. Could you figure that out in an afternoon? The more pages, the more confusing, the more opportunity for the goobermint to screw you. Simple as that. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #24 January 23, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote I'm sure The the UK's tax codes right now are a little easier to understand than ours. This made me curious, so I read them both. Just finished. The Brits' one was harder to figger out. 2 questions to ask: If you were to ask a brit, do you think he would say ours is harder to figure out? You mean a Brit accountant or tax lawyer? That's what you meant, right? QuoteI mean, you were able to read their code and figure it out in an afternoon...... 30 minutes, actually. That's for both of them. I speed-read. QuoteAnd have you figured out what Obama care is going to do to our taxes over the next couple of years? Its over 2000 pages. Could you figure that out in an afternoon? You betcha! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 380 #25 January 23, 2012 QuoteWhich goes back to easy, well established rules that everyone knows. Not 2,000 page monstrosities of leagaleeze.... So what should, in your opinion, be the maximum length of a law? If it came out of this White House, would you bother to read it even if it was only, say, 5 pages, or would you just swallow whole cloth the Rush Limbaugh version? I very much suspect the latter. It seems to me that here in the US no law can be simply stated, as our whole legal system is based on the premise that enforcement must hinge on the exact letter of the law so virtually every contingency must be anticipated and spelled out. Other countries have systems that give courts more leeway to interpret the clear intent or spirit of the law, so laws can be stated more succinctly. For example: Simple law: Thou shall not kill. US version: Thou shall not murder (1). (1) Murder refers to the killing (as defined in paragraph 3 subsections 1-12) of a human being (as defined in paragraph 5 subsections 1-35), except under exclusions defined in paragraphs 12-378. And so on and on for another 1,000 pages. The principles of "Obamacare" can be written out on one page. The specific mechanics of how those principles are to be achieved takes a lot more. Perhaps it could have been done more succinctly, but then many more specifics and details would have to be left implied rather than stated, and you (and those of your political leaning) would still complain you don't know what's in the bill. I recall that the federal legislation establishing universal health care access in Canada was pretty simple (and short). It just mandated that every Province (equivalent to State for those who are so UScentric they don't know what a Province is) had to establish their own system by such-and-such a date. Details were left to the individual provinces, but the coverage had to be comprehensive and universal. That might have been a better approach in the US, but due to constitutional issues of federal vs state powers it would be impossible. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
