footage emerges showing U.S. troops urinating on dead Afghan bodies

[Marinus 0]

Yeah, bad stuff is bound to happen during war, but some stuff is uncalled for I think, besides you've to draw the line somewhere. Since pissing on corpses isn't strictly necessary, and it upsets a lot of people, you might as well draw the line there.

[jclalor 12]

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***Since the repeal of DADT, there are probably videos of U.S.Troops urinating on each other.

Your childish understanding of human sexuality is embarrassing.

How so? I have had clients who participated in the practice.

You think this type of behavior only happens in the military after the repeal of DADT ?

When American troops are being killed on a daily basis, and you joke about them pissing on each other? Classy.

[RonD1120 62]

You are trying to bait me to go in a direction I am not willing to go. I'll stand on my post #3 and leave it at that.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[BoogeyMan 0]

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Yeah, bad stuff is bound to happen during war, but some stuff is uncalled for I think, besides you've to draw the line somewhere. Since pissing on corpses isn't strictly necessary, and it upsets a lot of people, you might as well draw the line there.

It's very difficult to control people who have just been "nearly killed" in a fight. Emotions run super high. Far higher than any skydive will ever produce. But place it in perspective.....
A guy aims an AK at your chest, and pulls the trigger... He missed, or was empty. You, Marinus, then stitch him from his navel to his right shoulder. This ain't the fuckin' movies either. He's dead. You're alive. Try taking your own pulse and controlling yourself after some shit like that. It's not an easy thing to do. Then work through that scenario again and again day and night, awake or in your dreams for a year. Then again for two or three more deployments. See my point?

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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Since the repeal of DADT, there are probably videos of U.S.Troops urinating on each other. One of the Marines understood the meaning of "Golden Showers."

PFFT! He's obviously gay!

[matthewcline 0]

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some of the most popular death cards were big white crosses...

I was not aware of that. I never saw such a reference.

The Ace of Spades was popular. The guys with whom I discussed this custom stated they had unit business cards printed in country.

Yes, Death Cards happened to be popular, back then. But, when Intel assets told various Commanders the reason they saw an increase in attacks against their command was due to the death card retaliation, it fizzled out (It did try a return later, with out much success,as the practice doesn't scare the enemy) .

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[lawrocket 3]

There seems to be agreement by all that it was not the right thing to do. The debate appears to me to be centered on whether or not it was justified. My thought? Fuck no.

Yes there was a firefight and there were a couple of dead enemy. I recall Willard from Apocalypse Now saying of Duvall’s character that “If that’s how Kilgore fought the war I began to wonder what they had against Kurtz. It wasn’t just insanity and murder – there was plenty of that to go around for everyone.” Kurtz said, “We train young men to drop fire on people but their commanders won’t allow them to write ‘Fuck’ on their airplanes because it’s obscene.”

Yes, war is immoral. War necessarily means committing what can be regarded as atrocities as part of the job description. The problem is, “Where do you draw the line.”

I rest assured that the line of acceptable conduct is located well in advance of “pissing on dead enemy.” And from my experience, this whole thing comes from command climate. Is it some squad leader that was running loose? Then I blame the E-7 and the eltee for letting it happen. And let’s move up to First Sergeant and the Captain for allowing a climate where such actions not only could occur, but where the dumb fucks felt safe actually TAPING it.

I hope that two or more officers are relieved of their positions from this. As much as some look to justification and combat high, etc., I don’t buy it because they had enough of their heads about them to video it. That alone tells me that the leadership of these guys failed them.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[matthewcline 0]

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Yeah, bad stuff is bound to happen during war, but some stuff is uncalled for I think, besides you've to draw the line somewhere. Since pissing on corpses isn't strictly necessary, and it upsets a lot of people, you might as well draw the line there.

It's very difficult to control people who have just been "nearly killed" in a fight. Emotions run super high. Far higher than any skydive will ever produce. But place it in perspective.....
A guy aims an AK at your chest, and pulls the trigger... He missed, or was empty. You, Marinus, then stitch him from his navel to his right shoulder. This ain't the fuckin' movies either. He's dead. You're alive. Try taking your own pulse and controlling yourself after some shit like that. It's not an easy thing to do. Then work through that scenario again and again day and night, awake or in your dreams for a year. Then again for two or three more deployments. See my point?

BTDT, 21 years worth, never once did I piss on the dead. I yelled at them, sure it was derogatory, but no need to mutilate or pis on them.

At the moment in time the video was shot, they had no such stresses (look at the video again, the firefight was long over)and had the chance to just walk away. They should have, just walked away.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Marinus 0]

Oh, I'm well aware that people can snap, especially when exposed to the stress of war. Especially when that continues for a long time. That doesn't mean that it's OK or should be ignored. I'll admit that pissing on dead people isn't the end of the world, but snapping comes in all forms and sizes, like supersized if, for example, a group of soldiers going bezerk in a village resulting in a massacre (Rawagede, My Lai) So while the behaviour is understandable, it should be condemned and where possible punished.

Also, this doesn't seem to be a result of acute stress, more like "You know what would be cool? pissing on them and filming it LOL" But being under combat stress might as well result in dehumanization the enemy. Or, even stronger, you probably won't be a very good killer if you don't dehumanize the enemy to a certain degree. In contrary to popular believe, humans aren't extremely violent and actually usually don't like to kill at all.

But still, you don't want people who behave like this in the army.

[Marinus 0]

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PFFT! He's obviously gay!

No, he asked a gay, and was told what a Golden Shower was.

[BoogeyMan 0]

It's very difficult to control people who have just been "nearly killed" in a fight. Emotions run super high.

That's all I said..... I neither condone it or criticize it. I accept that it does happen on both sides. As I posted earlier wars get nasty.

[BoogeyMan 0]

It's very difficult to control people who have just been "nearly killed" in a fight. Emotions run super high.

That's all I said..... I neither condone it or criticize it. I accept that it does happen on both sides. As I posted earlier wars get nasty.

[BoogeyMan 0]

But did you ever, after a fight, in your 21 years, stop anyone from this type of behavior? That's what posters are looking for. That this type of behavior is an aberration.
In my case......
We didn't hang around after some shit went down. Too much noise, tends to attract too many people.


EDIT....... The notices from DZ.com are coming thru very, very slowly. Dunno why.

[matthewcline 0]

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But did you ever, after a fight, in your 21 years, stop anyone from this type of behavior? That's what posters are looking for. That this type of behavior is an aberration.
In my case......
We didn't hang around after some shit went down. Too much noise, tends to attract too many people.


EDIT....... The notices from DZ.com are coming thru very, very slowly. Dunno why.

In my four operational tours (TL, then SL, and then PSG) I stopped one kid from wanting a picture with a body. The rest of the time (about two and a third years total) the guys did as we had trained, we moved toward the enemy, make contact, assaulted through, consolidated, reorganized, and then moved on to the next OBJ.

In the earlier years we tended to leave, after the search for usable intel, rather quickly too.

In the later years, I moved the guys who happened to be in the contact to the perimeter and the QRF or follow on force handled the OBJ. We spent a little more time, but still moved out quickly.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[BoogeyMan 0]

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Oh, I'm well aware that people can snap, especially when exposed to the stress of war. Especially when that continues for a long time. That doesn't mean that it's OK or should be ignored. I'll admit that pissing on dead people isn't the end of the world, but snapping comes in all forms and sizes, like supersized if, for example, a group of soldiers going bezerk in a village resulting in a massacre (Rawagede, My Lai) So while the behaviour is understandable, it should be condemned and where possible punished.

Also, this doesn't seem to be a result of acute stress, more like "You know what would be cool? pissing on them and filming it LOL" But being under combat stress might as well result in dehumanization the enemy. Or, even stronger, you probably won't be a very good killer if you don't dehumanize the enemy to a certain degree. In contrary to popular believe, humans aren't extremely violent and actually usually don't like to kill at all.

But still, you don't want people who behave like this in the army.

You are dead on point. However, we are not talking about troops who snap. That is too extreme an example for this post.
Dehumanizing the enemy is easy. Fear, traumatic events. It sets in fast, too. I pose you, this.
There you are again...... You just set off a claymore mine with your clacker, in the middle of the night and you have lain still for a few hours until the area gets light enough to see. Of course, when you can see, is when the shooting starts again, sometimes. There on the trail before you lies three men. Enemy soldiers in uniform and all that.
Two have had their abdomens torn open and are very very dead. The third has had a leg traumatically severed below the knee. He also has multiple ball bearing holes in his abdomen, left side and his face. There is a huge puddle of blood there, and you can see that he's a dead man already. As you become visible, the fool makes a grab for his AK.
You make the call............ Keep in mind, your criteria for a soldier and why they dehumanize the enemy.
Yeah....... it's a shitty deal.

[BoogeyMan 0]

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But did you ever, after a fight, in your 21 years, stop anyone from this type of behavior? That's what posters are looking for. That this type of behavior is an aberration.
In my case......
We didn't hang around after some shit went down. Too much noise, tends to attract too many people.


EDIT....... The notices from DZ.com are coming thru very, very slowly. Dunno why.

In my four operational tours (TL, then SL, and then PSG) I stopped one kid from wanting a picture with a body. The rest of the time (about two and a third years total) the guys did as we had trained, we moved toward the enemy, make contact, assaulted through, consolidated, reorganized, and then moved on to the next OBJ.

In the earlier years we tended to leave, after the search for usable intel, rather quickly too.

In the later years, I moved the guys who happened to be in the contact to the perimeter and the QRF or follow on force handled the OBJ. We spent a little more time, but still moved out quickly.

Matt

I believe that's what posters were looking for. Thx.

[matthewcline 0]

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Oh, I'm well aware that people can snap, especially when exposed to the stress of war. Especially when that continues for a long time. That doesn't mean that it's OK or should be ignored. I'll admit that pissing on dead people isn't the end of the world, but snapping comes in all forms and sizes, like supersized if, for example, a group of soldiers going bezerk in a village resulting in a massacre (Rawagede, My Lai) So while the behaviour is understandable, it should be condemned and where possible punished.

Also, this doesn't seem to be a result of acute stress, more like "You know what would be cool? pissing on them and filming it LOL" But being under combat stress might as well result in dehumanization the enemy. Or, even stronger, you probably won't be a very good killer if you don't dehumanize the enemy to a certain degree. In contrary to popular believe, humans aren't extremely violent and actually usually don't like to kill at all.

But still, you don't want people who behave like this in the army.

You are dead on point. However, we are not talking about troops who snap. That is too extreme an example for this post.
Dehumanizing the enemy is easy. Fear, traumatic events. It sets in fast, too. I pose you, this.
There you are again...... You just set off a claymore mine with your clacker, in the middle of the night and you have lain still for a few hours until the area gets light enough to see. Of course, when you can see, is when the shooting starts again, sometimes. There on the trail before you lies three men. Enemy soldiers in uniform and all that.
Two have had their abdomens torn open and are very very dead. The third has had a leg traumatically severed below the knee. He also has multiple ball bearing holes in his abdomen, left side and his face. There is a huge puddle of blood there, and you can see that he's a dead man already. As you become visible, the fool makes a grab for his AK.
You make the call............ Keep in mind, your criteria for a soldier and why they dehumanize the enemy.
Yeah....... it's a shitty deal.

Bad example, he is an enemy combatant who went for his weapon. He shows he is still in the fight and can be engaged.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[BoogeyMan 0]

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Oh, I'm well aware that people can snap, especially when exposed to the stress of war. Especially when that continues for a long time. That doesn't mean that it's OK or should be ignored. I'll admit that pissing on dead people isn't the end of the world, but snapping comes in all forms and sizes, like supersized if, for example, a group of soldiers going bezerk in a village resulting in a massacre (Rawagede, My Lai) So while the behaviour is understandable, it should be condemned and where possible punished.

Also, this doesn't seem to be a result of acute stress, more like "You know what would be cool? pissing on them and filming it LOL" But being under combat stress might as well result in dehumanization the enemy. Or, even stronger, you probably won't be a very good killer if you don't dehumanize the enemy to a certain degree. In contrary to popular believe, humans aren't extremely violent and actually usually don't like to kill at all.

But still, you don't want people who behave like this in the army.

You are dead on point. However, we are not talking about troops who snap. That is too extreme an example for this post.
Dehumanizing the enemy is easy. Fear, traumatic events. It sets in fast, too. I pose you, this.
There you are again...... You just set off a claymore mine with your clacker, in the middle of the night and you have lain still for a few hours until the area gets light enough to see. Of course, when you can see, is when the shooting starts again, sometimes. There on the trail before you lies three men. Enemy soldiers in uniform and all that.
Two have had their abdomens torn open and are very very dead. The third has had a leg traumatically severed below the knee. He also has multiple ball bearing holes in his abdomen, left side and his face. There is a huge puddle of blood there, and you can see that he's a dead man already. As you become visible, the fool makes a grab for his AK.
You make the call............ Keep in mind, your criteria for a soldier and why they dehumanize the enemy.
Yeah....... it's a shitty deal.

Bad example, he is an enemy combatant who went for his weapon. He shows he is still in the fight and can be engaged.

Matt

We are talking about why soldiers dehumanize the enemy. Not if a shooting is righteous.
Do you know the name Rommel. Not the WW2 guy? From '67.

[matthewcline 0]

I know what we are talking about, your example was not that however (unless some details have been left out).

Listing more bad apples doesn't make it any less wrong. Those five Marines KNOW better and are normally far more disciplined. Lets not justify it as a heat of the moment issue (as it wasn't), and lets not justify it as a "war is hell" issue. Those Marines made a bad decision no matter what the thought process was that let to the action.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[lawrocket 3]

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But being under combat stress might as well result in dehumanization the enemy. Or, even stronger, you probably won't be a very good killer if you don't dehumanize the enemy to a certain degree.

Wise words. People have a problem killing other people. It’s much easier to kill a kraut, gook or raghead. And very significantly easier to cope with killing a person if it was some camel jockey who wanted to kill me. Dave Grossman described his belief on it in “On Killing.” Not only is a person trained to overcome their instinct not to kill, but they also dehumanize the enemy. But Grossman also emphasizes command structure and the leadership necessary to prevent shit like this.

There was some pretty weak leadership here.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[BoogeyMan 0]

We both have BTDT....... it's a shitty deal, like I posted way back. War gets nasty.
I would loathe to be on a GCM for any troop.

EDIT......... I didn't answer you full.
My point is that did you ever walk up on three shredded, stinking blobs of what used to be human? Whether or not the blobs are friendly or enemy.... revulsion kicks in. That adds up in the dehumanization of the enemy. Yes, there are many, many other factors.

[christelsabine 1]

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We both have BTDT....... it's a shitty deal, like I posted way back. War gets nasty.
I would loathe to be on a GCM for any troop.

EDIT......... I didn't answer you full.
My point is that did you ever walk up on three shredded, stinking blobs of what used to be human? Whether or not the blobs are friendly or enemy.... revulsion kicks in. That adds up in the dehumanization of the enemy. Yes, there are many, many other factors.

Holy Cow

When was your last meeting with your local psychiatrist to cope with stress?

You sound like you're under continuous fire

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[BoogeyMan 0]

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We both have BTDT....... it's a shitty deal, like I posted way back. War gets nasty.
I would loathe to be on a GCM for any troop.

EDIT......... I didn't answer you full.
My point is that did you ever walk up on three shredded, stinking blobs of what used to be human? Whether or not the blobs are friendly or enemy.... revulsion kicks in. That adds up in the dehumanization of the enemy. Yes, there are many, many other factors.

Holy Cow

When was your last meeting with your local psychiatrist to cope with stress?

You sound like you're under continuous fire

Schatzi.........! Wie gehts. ( please excuse my grammar and spelling)
My stress......??
I'm kool as an ice cube in Alaska, yesterday. How do you gather that I'm stressed? Are you a Shrink?
Oh Dear....... Are you taking my posts as real events in my life?
Schatzi........ Was Gher right about what he said about you and I the other day?

[matthewcline 0]

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We both have BTDT....... it's a shitty deal, like I posted way back. War gets nasty.
I would loathe to be on a GCM for any troop.

EDIT......... I didn't answer you full.
My point is that did you ever walk up on three shredded, stinking blobs of what used to be human? Whether or not the blobs are friendly or enemy.... revulsion kicks in. That adds up in the dehumanization of the enemy. Yes, there are many, many other factors.

Holy Cow

When was your last meeting with your local psychiatrist to cope with stress?

You sound like you're under continuous fire

Schatzi.........! Wie gehts. ( please excuse my grammar and spelling)
My stress......??
I'm kool as an ice cube in Alaska, yesterday. How do you gather that I'm stressed? Are you a Shrink?
Oh Dear....... Are you taking my posts as real events in my life?
Schatzi........ Was Gher right about what he said about you and I the other day?

No, it was just a back handed insult.

To answer your question, yes I have walked up on numerous bodies, mostly I felt pity, for some I wondered why they even tried, and others I was pissed at. I never abused them though, and I didn't allow my men too either.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[BoogeyMan 0]

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We both have BTDT....... it's a shitty deal, like I posted way back. War gets nasty.
I would loathe to be on a GCM for any troop.

EDIT......... I didn't answer you full.
My point is that did you ever walk up on three shredded, stinking blobs of what used to be human? Whether or not the blobs are friendly or enemy.... revulsion kicks in. That adds up in the dehumanization of the enemy. Yes, there are many, many other factors.

Holy Cow

When was your last meeting with your local psychiatrist to cope with stress?

You sound like you're under continuous fire

Schatzi.........! Wie gehts. ( please excuse my grammar and spelling)
My stress......??
I'm kool as an ice cube in Alaska, yesterday. How do you gather that I'm stressed? Are you a Shrink?
Oh Dear....... Are you taking my posts as real events in my life?
Schatzi........ Was Gher right about what he said about you and I the other day?

No, it was just a back handed insult.

To answer your question, yes I have walked up on numerous bodies, mostly I felt pity, for some I wondered why they even tried, and others I was pissed at. I never abused them though, and I didn't allow my men too either.

Matt

Excellent.... I'm sure that between the posts of Law and yourself, that others will get the idea that US troops are not running wild everywhere.
As far as Schatzi..... If it was a backwards whatever... it didn't work. I prefer to believe that she's got the hots for me. Why else would she bother? I don't know her at all. Perhaps an internet virtual crush of sorts. Kool, huh?